The Truth About Lawyer Referral Services

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Matt Dolman:

Welcome to the Dolman Law Podcast. This is episode two. I'm here with Alex Knapp, the Director of Operations here at Dolman Law Group. I'm Matthew Dolman, Managing Partner at Dolman Law Group. We handle personal injury cases statewide throughout Florida.

Today we're here to talk about lawyer referral services, which is an issue that's near and dear our hearts. Alex, what have you, what's your thoughts on lawyer referral services? And then I will take it from there.

Alex Knapp:

PAIN: 00:01:18

Matt Dolman:

it's not that I'm [inaudible: 00:02:02

It's a pay to play scheme. So if you pay and you're a member in good standing with the Florida Bar, I believe that's what their qualifications are. You become a member of 411 PAIN, and I don't want to paint all attorneys that are members of this lawyer referral service with one brush. Sure, there's some quality lawyers that are involved. But are the top trial lawyers in this state, are the preeminent lawyers in this state members of 411 PAIN? I don't think so. I can give you a number of the top trial lawyers, the guys who are board-certified, the guys with the biggest reputation this side of the state. And I know guys on the other side of the state who are not members of any specific lawyer referral service, who disdain lawyer referral services, who would never want to be mentioned or associated with a lawyer referral service.

In fact, they rely upon their reputations and their former and current clients to get new business, not based upon advertising with a lawyer referral service who constantly is ad nauseam on daytime television and all over the radio, telling individuals what they can and will attain after retaining such a service.

Alex Knapp:

Yeah, a lot of times the commercials are actually funny because they'll present information that's in itself true, but very misleading. You might be entitled to $10,000 after your personal injury case or in your personal injury car accident case. And the reality is, they're referring to personal injury protection, $10,000 worth of insurance coverage that's available to you to pay your medical bills. But what most of my clients now think, or what people in the community think when they see that is, there's $10,000 just ready to come to me the moment I get in the car accident. It's really misleading.

Another thing is, like Matt said, it's a paid membership. We oftentimes based on our kind of the blogging we've done in the past on the topic of 411 PAIN, we get a few clients that are either currently represented by or previously represented by, or were considering being represented by 411 PAIN attorneys. And I'll tell you, the list of names that I've seen when I've sent out discharge letters letting prior attorneys know that they're no longer on the case, isn't a distinguished one. Those aren't exactly names of lawyers that you see just knocking out huge verdicts on awesome cases a lot of times. It's oftentimes small shops that are just settlement mills churning out cases.

Matt Dolman:

s office, I believe it was in: 2012

The lawyers that are in the organization obviously have to prescribe to certain standards that are mandated by the Florida Bar, but the Florida Bar has trouble regulating this organization because they're owned by non-lawyers. This is a service that will often state that they can perform specific functions that are not, it's often fool's gold. What they're stating is that they can attain specific results, yet it doesn't hold true to all lawyers that are part of their service. Depending on when you call or what time you call, you may be assigned to one of a number of different lawyers based upon where they fall in the rotation of 411 PAIN and how much money they paid in order to receive the specific amount of referrals they get every month. The person making that decision is an individual in a call center who is not a lawyer, who does not have a legal background, does not have a legal education that is making this determination for you.

Now, 411 PAIN is now subject to and is a defendant in a lawsuit filed by Geico in federal court, in violation of the RICO statute, Racketeering and Influence Corruption Organization Act, alleging fraud, alleging kickback schemes, and alleging client brokering. This lawsuit was filed back in, I believe it was October and they have now filed, I believe they filed an answer to the complaint, but I could be wrong. This is going on in federal court. This is going to take a couple years to play out, but the allegations are pretty salacious. And one of the main allegations was that Path Medical, which is actually the company that owns the medical centers, was directing everyone to a specific lawyer or specific lawyers who in turn were telling these individuals, they have to go treat at Path Medical, so it was very self-serving. It wasn't in the best interest of the client, that the client sees the same physicians no matter what type of claim they have. And it seemed very almost as if this was a deal of brokering between the lawyers and the doctors that were involved with 411 PAIN.

Alex Knapp:

Yeah. I mean aside from the complaint and the issues that are presented in there, and Matt is far more able to discuss that kind of thing than I am. He's read the complaint. He knows far more about it than I do. The issues that we've kind of come across in the past, just from talking to doctors that used to be part of the group, talking to doctors that are currently a part of the group, talking to lawyers that have taken part in it, 411 PAIN is far more worried about getting you into one of their clinics than getting you the best possible legal representation, because they also know that one of the worst parts of this industry is that there's oftentimes not enough coverage in a personal injury case. There may not be bodily injury coverage. There may not be under-insured motors coverage. But if the vehicle that you are driving in, or if you own a Florida vehicle, is by a Florida insurance policy, there is going to be at least $10,000 worth of personal injury protection.

So those medical bills that they're able to charge are going to be paid and, unless there's fraud involved, there will be no situation where Path Medical or Physician's Group or whomever is required to give that money back. So as long as they get you into the attorney that's on the list at that time when you called into their call center, they know that they're going to get you treatment and your treatment is going to follow a certain path that will allow them to, I don't know, for lack of a better term, extract your $10,000 in personal injury protection, as quickly as possible.

I've actually spoken to a doctor that used to be part of their network that told me that in his initial evaluation of a patient, he would give them certain diagnoses and certain treatments and then somewhere along the way within Path Medical, they would see a medical doctor. That medical doctor would create all new diagnoses that weren't in the initial treatment note from the chiropractor, and suddenly that individual would be going through all different types of modalities. So that 411 PAIN's clinic, Path Medical could extract as much money as possible per visit until they could get to the $10,000 as quickly as possible.

Matt Dolman:

Correct. GEICO's claiming that there's violations of the Self-Referral Act. And the Self-Referral Act prohibits any healthcare, and I'm reading this right now from the lawsuit, it prohibits any healthcare or medical providers from referring patients to any entity or service that they own or have an investment interest in. Now, in this case, Robert Lewin, who is the owner of 411 PAIN also owns Path Medical. So what GEICO's claiming is that injured parties will call 411 PAIN, and then they'd either be self-referred right to a path medical clinic, or be referred to an attorney, and namely it's Kanner and Pintaluga or Landau and Associates who then refer the new client to get treated at Path Medical Clinic. So that was one of the main violations.

And then the other violation also is part of the same scheme that Geico, again, these are only allegations, and this is only what Geico is alleging. None of this has been proven yet in the court of law, but there is substantial allegations, and what they believe is substantial proof that this all did occur, that Landau and Associates would then handle all the PIP billing and any billing irregularities by Geico on the back end. So Kanner and Pintaluga also owns Landau and Associates, according to the court documents in the allegations put forth in the complaint. So Kanner and Pintaluga was dipping into the front end of the case, based on what Geico was perceiving as legal claims and violations of the Self-Referral Act. And then on the backend, also dipping in on the PIP benefits and whatever benefits were not paid. So they were seeking attorney fees on PIP claims.

Alex Knapp:

I guess that's something we should probably discuss just really briefly. If a medical provider in this state of Florida bill's personal injury protection through a PIP insurer and they aren't paid properly, there is a remedy that's available to them in the Florida statute that they can send a demand. If a demand isn't met, isn't paid properly, they can file a lawsuit and their lawsuit will allow their attorney's fees to be paid from the insurance company. Basically that lawsuit gets prevailing party fees. So in a situation where, let's say, Path Medical has a patient that's referred to them by 411 PAIN that's represented by Kanner and Pintaluga, Kanner and Pintaluga then represents that client for the bodily injury claim, if there is one. They will then get an attorney's fee based off of that case.

But if Path Medical's claim bill is not paid properly by the insurance company, Geico, USAA, State Farm whomever, Landau and Associates then takes the treatment notes from Path Medical sends a demand on Path Medical's behalf and obtains a settlement for the treatment that takes place from Path Medical, along with an attorney's fee there.

So that's what Matt's referring to when he says double-dipping. There's two different types of litigation that can occur in and around a personal injury case. There is the litigation that takes place where the person that's hurt is made whole, but there's also a litigation that can take place on behalf of the medical provider.

Matt Dolman:

Correct. And also, and I'm going to read again from the lawsuit, there's alleged violations of the chiropractic advertising law. So Florida chiropractic advertising laws prohibit any chiropractor from advertising under a name other than their own and prohibits engaging in false, deceptive, or misleading advertising. So Geico claims that Lewin, Robert Lewin, the owner of 411 PAIN, 411 PAIN itself, and Path Medical violates these in a three separate ways. First by making 411 PAIN appears if it were an independent, separate business acting on its own to find patients a healthcare professional, when in fact they were actually just referring patients to clinics owned by them. Second, Geico claims that Path Medical advertised under a name other than their own when they advertise as 411 PAIN, and finally, by representing Path Medical Clinics as superior to other clinics. They go on to say that 411 PAIN's website claims that their service helps patients find chiropractic clinics when in fact they never disclose that there is no finding involved. They send everybody to Path Medical.

So 411 PAIN is claiming that they act as this independent service that's going to help you find the best doctor and lawyer, and in every single case their sending you to Path Medical, or if they lack a specific chiropractor, or if Path Medical is not treating individuals in a specific jurisdiction or zip code, they send you to a chiropractor that they have a deal with. So like in this case, in Clearwater, everyone sees a chiropractor by the name of Don Brown, at All Family Wellness, so it's all based on who 411 PAIN has a relationship with in that area, in that zip code. Or if Path Medical is actually operating that jurisdiction, everyone sees Path Medical. Does that sound like an independent medical lawyer referral service to you?

Alex Knapp:

I mean, certainly not. And that's the crux of GEICO's allegation. Far be it for me to end up on the side of Geico. I often find them to be one of the more difficult insurance companies to deal with and to kind of have a back and forth with, but it certainly seems like they might be onto something. This isn't the first time that allegations of impropriety been levied against 411 PAIN and Path Medical, to be sure.

Matt Dolman:

Another thing I found very interesting is, and it's very telling. And again, these are just allegations. Again, this is just the allegations contained the federal lawsuit that's over a hundred pages that was filed back in October in the middle district of Florida here in Tampa. But Geico specifically called out the lawyer and the doctor defendants for having poor reputations that required him to participate in fraudulent scams in order secure new clients. So Geico called out Eric Pintaluga and his prior Bar violation or violations. And it's saying that he had a poor reputation and needed this service in order to secure new clients. They also called out Dr. Michael Wolinsky, Dr. David Cheeseman, Ty Quan, MD and Ralph G. Marino, MD. And I'm hopefully I'm pronouncing these names correctly, and a number of them had prior disciplinary histories. I think one was accused of Medicare fraud in the past.

They all had, according to Geico, at least, this is, again, according to their allegations in the complaint, and by no means this objective and the thoughts of Matthew Dolman and Dolman Law Group, but it does state that these individuals all would have trouble securing employment on their own and were all part of this massive fraud, all part of this massive fraud scheme, and no way could any of these individuals, some of them very advanced in age, a couple of these physicians were older than 70, possibly see the amount of patients that 411 PAIN or Path Medical was claiming that they were seeing in a given day or given week, and that the numerous bills were being submitted where these physicians were apparently rendering services that, according to Geico, it was impossible for someone of that advanced age to see that many individuals in such a given day or given week.

Alex Knapp:

been going on since at least: 2014

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. Yeah. That's basically in a nutshell, the allegations that have been alleged at least against 411 PAIN, Path Medical, which again is owned by the very same individual that owns 411 PAIN, which is Robert Cash Lewin, the law firm of Kanner and Pintaluga, the lawyers individually, Eric Pintaluga, Howard Kanner, Landau and Associates, and specifically Todd Landau. Again, these are allegations, none of them are proven. So we look forward to seeing how this presents itself and how this plays out over the next two years. Again, considering this is a federal RICO case, and it's a very convoluted federal litigation, it's going to take a couple years for this whole thing to play out. This is not expedited litigation, which we normally see in federal court because it's a complex federal case. It's going to take quite some time. So I look forward to seeing how this does play out. But keep in mind again, when you're calling a lawyer referral service, and this is a third party, you got to ask yourself, what is a non-attorney spokesperson that you see on TV?

service, which is [inaudible: 00:18:26

We've seen some young and inexperienced lawyers. We've also seen some very good lawyers, but it's not the top, the crux of the crust, the upper echelon, the top crust of trial lawyers out there that are members of 411 PAIN. In fact, most of the top lawyers out there that the individuals were considered the best in the business are not members of 411 PAIN. So these advertisements that, if you will, you hear on the radio regularly, where they talk about this exclusive group of lawyers that are members of 411 PAIN. In fact, in one, you hears woman with this annoying voice, talking about how many members there are on the Florida Bar, yet there's only so many members of 411 PAIN as if it's an exclusive group. Is a really exclusive, Alex?

Alex Knapp:

No, it's it's certainly not. I was actually surprised not that long ago to learn that one of the biggest personal injury law firm in the state, and probably the country accepts and works with 411 PAIN. So that gives you an idea, meaning they're a very good law firm in certain areas, certain aspects.

Matt Dolman:

Phenomenal. They are some very good trial lawyers.

Alex Knapp:

There's some very, very good trial lawyers, some very good, bad faith lawyers that are at that particular firm. But the other side of it is they do accept thousands and thousands of intakes a month because it's such a large machine that they've got to support. On the other side of it is you have small individuals out there that are part of the group that couldn't possibly have built up the cache or the experience needed to be a part of a group. The bottom line is there's absolutely zero evidence of any kind of a claim that 411 PAIN lawyers are superior to non 411 PAIN lawyers. As Matt has so eloquently laid out, we know some incredible personal injury attorneys, trial attorneys with multiple million dollar verdicts in the last year who have no involvement with lawyer referral services or 411 PAIN at all. Frankly, some of the best trial lawyers you're ever going to come across, they get all of their work from other lawyers.

Matt Dolman:

Yes. Or based on their reputation and standing in the community. They're not reliant upon a lawyer referral service. They can actually stand on their own reputation to generate cases, much like our firm does. We don't worry about mass advertising. We have a couple billboards in the area, because I formally was an associate of another lawyer that helps doctors in the area know that I am on my own, but we're not involved in mass advertising. In fact, we probably spend about a 10th what most lawyers who are the biggest firms in this area would spend in terms of monthly advertising. We're reliant upon our previous successes, upon the results we've obtained from former and current clients who are retaining us for a second time. That's how we built our business by word of mouth, not reliant or incumbent to some lawyer referral service.

Alex Knapp:

Yes. I can't get into the specifics because I frankly don't know them, but I've even been told in the past that certain lawyers that get involved with loyal referral services like 411 PAIN or like ASK GARY have to give up control of certain aspects of their practice.

Matt Dolman:

Marketing.

Alex Knapp:

Yes. Yeah. The marketing is obviously controlled by 411 PAIN and they certainly can't put a message out there that contradicts-

Matt Dolman:

I haven't heard that about 411 PAIN. I've heard that about other lawyer referral services, so just to be corrected on that they will come in and basically control how your marketing is done so they can get cases back to their specific doctors.

Alex Knapp:

Yeah.

Matt Dolman:

I haven't heard that about 411 PAIN.

Alex Knapp:

Yeah. Like I said, I wasn't certain it was 411 PAIN, but this is something I've heard about lawyer referral services in the past. Another issue is along with the monthly fee that you pay some agreements that some of these attorneys enter into require them to send back a certain number of clients as well. So in essence you have, that's probably not written down, but a quid pro quo relationship wherein, you're paying to get us to send you cases. But in addition, you need to send us cases back so that we're not just relying only on people that have called our referral service. It's not how I would choose to run a law firm if I was able to just design one from scratch.

Matt Dolman:

Yep. I think we could covered this from soup to nuts. I don't think there's much more to say. I disdain in lawyer referral services. I don't think they serve any legitimate purpose. I wish the legislature would do away with them in Florida. Obviously, they're somewhat outside the control of the Florida Bar. The Florida Bar only has jurisdiction over lawyers, not independent owners who are non-lawyers. Although the individuals who are part of the lawyer referral service, our lawyers, and I wish the Bar would do more, but they're kind of handcuffed here, if you will. I don't think they think much of these lawyer referral services as evidenced by the fact they have proposed numerous rule changes, but it's very difficult to govern, again, a service that is owned by non-lawyers.

Alex Knapp:

Yeah. 30 years ago, I could understand the need for it. People might not know who they could go to absent just follow whatever commercial shows up on television, but the internet and smartphones and the ability to reach the entire world of knowledge in our fingertips, it doesn't seem necessary for me to allow a company to exist that is a owned by non-lawyers that will dictate where individuals who are looking to retain lawyers, what lawyers they work with. It certainly seems perverse in its nature.

Matt Dolman:

Well, I think that's it for our second episode of the Dolman Law podcast. Thanks again, Alex.

Alex Knapp:

Thank you very much.

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