Smoke and Mirrors: Why TV Lawyers May Not Be the Best Choice

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After an accident, minutes matter. Your words and actions matter even more. You need help and you need it now. This is David Vs Goliath, brought to you by Dolman Law Group Accident Injury Lawyers, a boutique firm with a reputation for going head to head with the insurance company giants and putting people over profits. Thanks for joining us.

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This is an episode from our back catalog. So the episode numbers and firm name may have changed, but this is quality information so instead of scrapping them we decided it was more important to make sure you still had access. Enjoy the episode and listen to new episodes of David Vs Goliath at dolmanlaw.com.

Matt Dolman:

Hi, I'm Matt Dolman from the Dolman Law Group here with another episode of the Dolman Law Group Podcast. Joining me today is Stan Gipe from Papa & Gipe.

Stan Gipe:

Yes. Today we're here to talk a little bit or think about attorney advertising. Some of the stuff you see on TV versus what you might get when you open the box.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. I'd call it basically product puffery. So you get these lawyers that are on TV and we'll talk about the elephant in the corner of the room. Morgan, for instance, they've got the biggest law firm in the country and you got some very good lawyers there and some top flight trial lawyers, but at the end of the day you're not going to get John Morgan on the phone if you call that office. You're not going to get his cell phone.

Matt Dolman:

I don't think you're going to get the personal attention that he talks about, but more not withstanding in that fact, you see his commercials and he talks about the jury verdicts that they've obtained and the settlement offer that was there before they took the case to trial and how much greater the verdict was in comparison. But they don't talk about the low settlements, the $0 verdicts that any firm has and especially if you're trying cases in such a prolific nature.

Stan Gipe:

I can remember this vividly. One of the first things that I heard that really resonated with me as a trial lawyer when I first started I was talking to a more experienced trial lawyer and it was after a less than favorable verdict. And he came and he said, "Look, man, if you're not losing cases, you're not trying cases." And it makes sense because nobody is going to win every case they take to trial.

Matt Dolman:

Of course not.

Stan Gipe:

Okay. That's just not the nature of the beast. And if you are winning every case you take into trial, that means you're bailing on the hard ones because the ones that really need to go to trial, the people that need attorneys the most are the claim that's not clear cut, the claim that could go either way.

Matt Dolman:

Yes.

Stan Gipe:

And the problem you've got with a lot of people is that these are expensive claims to bring.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

And if there's not a guaranteed payday on the back end, some attorneys don't want to move forward with it. So you see the puffery with the big verdicts, but you don't see the losses and sometimes the losses actually speak more to what the firm is doing than those verdicts that are out there.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. I've seen and I've taken over cases from some of these television firms including Morgan and we were able to get much better settlement offers just because the case wasn't worked by an attorney, it was worked by a paralegal, a member of a pod, a case manager, if you will. And the personal attention was never there. They never spoke to an attorney. They never spoke to a lawyer. But going off your point before though, there's a certain select group of lawyers in the state that only try catastrophic injury cases, the biggest cases out there. And those cases are almost impossible to not get a great verdict on.

Stan Gipe:

Correct.

Matt Dolman:

It's a case where is it worth $5 million or is it worth 10 million? Is worth 10 million? Is it worth 15 million? These are the catastrophic injury cases out there that, and I call them damages lawyers. These are lawyers and their only job is to increase the damages and some of the best lawyers out there. And we are both good lawyers and you have a held a reputation. Your normal car accident case 60% of the time is going to end up in a defense verdict.

Matt Dolman:

These are not catastrophic injury cases. So your typical client is calling up these firms that are advertising on television or our firms most are not catastrophic injury claims where the individual is not going to ever be able to work again, or loss of life, loss of limb cases. These are your generic auto accidents neck and back injury claims and these are tough to take in front of a jury. And more often than not they are ending up in defense verdicts.

Stan Gipe:

You're absolutely right. Where we end up with the vast majority of the claims are not what you see in the paper, the $10 million verdict, the brain injury, the things like that. The vast majority of the claims are someone with a back injury, a disc injury, a shoulder injury, a soft tissue injury and maybe it's not the biggest impact, but your client has some significant injuries.

Stan Gipe:

And you're going to have to sit out there and convince a jury that they were actually injured in this accident, that what they're seeing on the car as far as damage doesn't necessarily correlate to what happened to the occupant. And I can't tell you, when you deal with an insurance company and they see those property damaged photos, a lot of them want to take the claims to trial.

Matt Dolman:

Of course they do.

Stan Gipe:

Because they know a juror is going to look at that and wonder, could that person have been hurt. That's where you need an attorney. You need an attorney that's going to be able to get in there and show the jury why you were hurt. It's not the person who got run over by the Coke truck that ran the red light. That's a fairly easy case. That's a softball. That's one of those damages cases you're talking about where it's not a question of if, it's a question of how much. Most people aren't in that position.

Matt Dolman:

No, those are rare.

Stan Gipe:

Most people are looking to get fair compensation for an injury that's had impact on their life, but hasn't ended their life, or changed it, or made it completely untenable to go forward for them.

Matt Dolman:

It just impeded their quality of life, if you will.

Stan Gipe:

And for those people it's important that they get an attorney that's willing to take the case to trial even if it's not a $10 million claim. If your claim is worth $50,000 you're just as entitled to your $50,000 as someone else is to their million if that's what their claim is worth and you need an attorney that's going to go out there, get in court and be willing to fight for your $50,000 just as hard as someone else's million.

Stan Gipe:

The thing you get with some larger firms, Morgan and some of the other ones it's as though you're going, hey, I need a doctor. All right, I'm going to go to the hospital and they'll give me one. Well, you may get a fantastic doctor, one of the best around or you may get someone who's not a skill. You don't know what draw you're going to get at the hospital because there's a thousand doctors there. It's not like going to your primary care physician.

Stan Gipe:

And if you start thinking about it that way because we've all got relationships with doctors, we've all had healthcare throughout our lives. Most of us haven't had as much experience going to attorneys. You don't have that same relationship. Well, you yourself pick your doctor because you like your doctor. You think this doctor is competent and you've also been to doctors in the past that you may have questioned.

Matt Dolman:

No question about it.

Stan Gipe:

Okay. It's the same thing with attorneys. But most of us with health a lot of it's common sense. You'd say, hey, my foot is hurting and the doctor is telling you it's shoulder problem you might, I need to go get that checked out. Law is not as much common sense so people don't always know when it's not going right. They're relying on the attorney to tell them both what they should do and what the likely outcomes are for things.

Stan Gipe:

And sometimes you get an attorney that's either scared of going to trial, you get an attorney that's not experienced with likely the outcomes at trial, or a worst case scenario, you get an attorney that has never gone to trial. And any of that can happen. Some firms when you get to your smaller firms what you're looking at is the people you see are the people you're going to get generally.

Matt Dolman:

Correct.

Stan Gipe:

But even then when you look if you were to drive around this area and look up on the billboards at all the smiling faces on the billboards, some of those guys have seen the courtroom. Some of those guys have never seen the courtroom.

Matt Dolman:

100%.

Stan Gipe:

And being billboard certified it's a lot different than being real board certified as an attorney.

Matt Dolman:

100%.

Stan Gipe:

And you're going to see it out there, but we as consumers we respond to advertising.

Matt Dolman:

No question about it.

Stan Gipe:

If it's shiny, if it's bright, if it looks nice.

Matt Dolman:

And Morgan is cornered advertising.

Stan Gipe:

It is.

Matt Dolman:

He's a genius with advertising. I'll tell you now. And I don't want to be smudge Morgan at all. I think they have actually a very good firm. They have some fantastic trial lawyers like Keith Mitnick, and Xander Clem and you know who these guys are. They have tremendous reputations, but there's other television law firms. And one actually Morgan made fun of in the Tampa tribune and he probably read their article in St. Pete Times, a firm in Tampa with two man shop and he just ripped them apart because it never tried a case. And that's what you're getting with these TV firms. It's volume in, garbage in, garbage out. I have luminous firms that don't try a lot of their cases and they have a reputation for leaving a lot of money on the table, if you will.

Stan Gipe:

I think I know the same firm you're talking about.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

And in fact, if I'm not mistaken, the TBT, that little weekly magazine that comes out at one point in time had a headline-

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. They did the expose.

Stan Gipe:

...with these guys there and it said, it's all for show.

Matt Dolman:

100%.

Stan Gipe:

Now, if you look at their ads you see some fantastic looking people, smoke, mirrors, impressive.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

It looks fantastic.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. They're walking out of the courthouse, they're throwing their business cards. There's journalists waiting for them to talk to them about their car accident case, which never happens ever.

Stan Gipe:

It absolutely gives that appearance, but it's much like if you've ever bought a product, something you ordered and then when it showed up and you opened the box you're like, what's this? This is nothing like what I saw in the commercial. This thing is this big. I thought it was going to be three feet long. That's what you get a lot of times. You get out there, you get through, you open the box and people get involved in the process and it's usually a year and a half or so in when they start realizing, wait, these guys aren't quite as aggressive as they said they were on TV.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

Wait, what do you mean you're not willing to file a lawsuit for my claim? What do you mean? And I've actually had claims come from this particular firm where people were not willing to file the lawsuit.

Matt Dolman:

Sure. Same.

Stan Gipe:

And they came over to us and we got the tender of the policy limits for people. We've had this happen on numerous occasions.

Matt Dolman:

Because the insurance company knows your track record.

Stan Gipe:

Well, the insurance company knows the track record and certain firms they get, and you know this, like you said the damages firms. You've got firms that get in sort of a niche practice where they found a way to make the most money they can and some of them it's trying cases. Some of them it's bringing in cases. And if you're a firm who's focused on bringing in cases, well, trying cases is different. You know Matt, when you go into litigation sometimes you're laying $5,000, $10,000, $15,000, $20,000, $30,000, $50,000, $100,000 out sometimes just in cost to get these claims.

Matt Dolman:

[inaudible: 00:11:08

Stan Gipe:

Well, exactly. Now, on one case it's no big deal. You start getting out there and you've got 10 clients, you've got 50 clients, you've got stuff like that. You got to put up all of these costs and some attorneys aren't willing to go there. They don't have that business model.

Matt Dolman:

Sure. It takes a lot of financial resources.

Stan Gipe:

It takes financial resources.

Matt Dolman:

Hire the right experts.

Stan Gipe:

The bright experts.

Matt Dolman:

And right demostratees. They illustrate the injuries at trial.

Stan Gipe:

It's amazing. It's amazing how much all that stuff costs and a lot of clients don't realize. So when you see stuff on the billboards, when you see the ads, it's not as though it's all misleading, but when you see-

Matt Dolman:

The majority of it is now.

Stan Gipe:

Some of it's accurate, but when you look up there, if you see John Morgan on TV and think when you get injured he's handling your case, you're in for a surprise.

Matt Dolman:

No. When was the last time he tried a case?

Stan Gipe:

I don't know if John has tried a case.

Matt Dolman:

Ever, but I don't think he's tried a case in at least the last two decades.

Stan Gipe:

No, it's not what he does.

Matt Dolman:

He's been smudging on our lawyers in his commercials and poking fun at them and it's just-

Stan Gipe:

Well, and that I do-

Matt Dolman:

At least I have a lot of respect for him and his firm, but it brings me to the next subject. And it's touching off what you said earlier. I always believe that even the world's worst trial lawyer, and neither one of us are, is still better than the 99 guys down the block who do not try cases because insurance companies hate spending money. And I'm paraphrasing Morgan here, but he said in that very article you're talking about, in the TBT and it was also published I think in the St. Pete Times and the Tampa tribe that if you're selling all of your cases, and I guess those two lawyers claim that they're getting amazing settlements and there was no need to try cases, that means that every last case you had you got a fair offer from the insurance company. It just doesn't work that way.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely.

Matt Dolman:

Insurance companies have no incentive to give you a fair offer. And usually even when you get a case done a mediation, there's a compromise between what they want to give and what your client wants. And it's the fear of trial and the fact that we're not cowboys and we want to do what's best for our client and the possibility that you could lose that trial and expose your client to fees is what generates that compromise.

Matt Dolman:

But if you're selling every single case with the insurance company, that means that they gave you the best offer possible, which they're not going to give you ever if there's no bite behind the bark. You're not trying a case and taking them to the trial. You're not doing anything to keep them honest.

Stan Gipe:

You said exactly where I was going. No bite behind the bark. And that you got to almost look at insurance companies as bullies.

Matt Dolman:

Of course.

Stan Gipe:

You got to look at them as bullies. And I tell you no matter what, no matter how strong you are if you're willing to punch the bully you're going to get more respect than someone who's not. If the bully is going to pick on two people and one of them is going to punch him, he's going to pick on the guy who's not going to punch.

Matt Dolman:

No question.

Stan Gipe:

And that's where you run into the same thing we deal with in injury law. If you're the guy that's not willing to stand up and punch the bully once in a while, you're going to get bullied. You are going to get steamroll. If you're not willing to try the case, the insurance company gives you the final offer. What option do you have but to take it?

Matt Dolman:

So you're leaving tons of money on the table.

Stan Gipe:

Tons.

Matt Dolman:

And these clients don't know that. The uncited consumer has no idea. They're looking at this glitzy television ad, looks well done. The lawyers are in the courtroom. They're presenting evidence yet they never tried a case and you're getting a fair offer. You have no idea how much money has been left on the table. It's just so sad. I mean, at our firm and I haven't reviewed your files, but I'm sure you can say the same exact thing. I'm going to speak for you that the cases that we litigate, if the case was so good it would've been settled in pre-suit for the most part.

Matt Dolman:

It's two types of cases that we litigated our firm. Well, three. Here and there we get the catastrophic injury case. Those are not in abundance. There's only a certain amount of catastrophic case that happen a year and they're split among many, many law firms out there.

Matt Dolman:

So that leaves two types of cases, the case where there's a causation liability issue, meaning that the accident could not have caused the injuries the client is complaining of maybe due to a lack of proper damage, or there's a liability issue that my client may have contributed to the accident itself, may have been negligent themselves. These are the type of cases we're seeing if they were so good, they would've been done in pre-suit. So if you're not taking these cases to the mat, you're 100% leaving money on the table, they have no incentive to ever give you a fair offer on a causation case.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely not. That's it because you're going to get into a trial scenario you end. And once you're in trial it's a lot of all or nothing. You're swinging for the fences. And when you get it and your message resonates with the jury and the jury sees what your client is going through, you usually get a real good verdict and you get a lot of money for that client. And when the jury looks at your client and they don't believe your client, you're going home empty handed. But if you're not willing to put that client up and get behind them, you lose.

Matt Dolman:

And you're doing them a disservice. You're doing a disservice to all your other clients because you're not trying cases.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah. Well, and that's it. And that's one of the things that I was saying even a trial that you lose, even a trial that comes back with a good verdict is a win for you as an attorney or your firm because you've showed the insurance company you will go to bat for the claim, no matter what the claim.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. Because the next time you're in mediation against State Farm, Allstate USA, whatever insurance company that was, and they all talk to each other, they're going to know that if Stan Gipe says he is not willing to take the offer, the next step is he is going to set the case for trial and good chances is going to show up. And I was going to say the other type of case we're referencing litigation I'm sure same thing in your office is there's just too much insurance coverage.

Stan Gipe:

Yes.

Matt Dolman:

And they may have been great injuries, but they're so insulated from any excess exposure to their insured that they're going to litigate those cases out and hope to mitigate their damages. But these are the only cases you're seeing in litigation. So if a lawyer is telling you that he hasn't tried many cases or you're hearing that they don't try a lot of cases and you see them on TV, that's a volume shop. That is a settlement mill. And that's not what I'm saying Morgan is at all. But most of the other guys you're seeing on billboards and advertising out there are settlement mills.

Stan Gipe:

Well, I can tell the insurance companies they go back, they're going to advertise or going to talk about these claims you're adjusters. And there's a ton of factors that they consider. I can promise you I've never had a mediation. They don't tell us what goes on in the other room. Mediation is private, but I am certain when I'm sitting there in mediation and the adjusters on the other side and the people with the money and the opposing councils and never once are they talking about the quality of the ads that person had?

Stan Gipe:

Never once are they going, this attorney kind of stinks, but have you seen how flashy his ads are? There's a lot of smoking cards flying around in those ads so we better pay them. That never, ever, ever is a factor. It's amazing how many people will make that a factor in their choice for an attorney.

Stan Gipe:

And what you got to realize is if the insurance company is not factoring, making that a factor in their valuation of the claim it probably shouldn't influence your choice as who you pick as an attorney because you want to select an attorney who the insurance company is also respecting, who the insurance company is also considering is a value driver for your case. They know if we don't pay this they're going to roll the dice and we can get hit big. So we need to take it seriously.

Matt Dolman:

Correct. I know I brought the example out of Morgan. That's a firm that tries a lot of cases. The only problem I had with them is I think it's disingenuous in the advertisements that they talk about all the great verdicts that they have as compared to the offer they received beforehand. What about all in every firm has had it and especially firm that's trying cases so prolifically that has such volume. This is the biggest firm in the country. They've had plenty of low offers. In fact, I've taken over many of those cases in my own firm. So I'm sure many attorneys in this community have.

Stan Gipe:

They've had hundreds of zero verdicts.

Matt Dolman:

Yes.

Stan Gipe:

Okay. And every one of those zero verdicts there was an offer on the table before trial. They're not going to-

Matt Dolman:

And most of them were not $0 offers. They were offers. They roll a dice and they lost.

Stan Gipe:

And that's going to happen.

Matt Dolman:

And I respect that actually. I respect the fact they try cases.

Stan Gipe:

But just because you're seeing verdicts, just because you see someone holding up a check on the billboard doesn't mean that's typical of what's going on with client in the firm.

Matt Dolman:

I love the billboards my lawyer got me, $380,000 or $620,000. What about the other 49 cases? And he got you $620,000, but what's your case worth $620,000 or you leave another $380,000 on the table that he could have gotten the million.

Stan Gipe:

We think the same things because it goes through my mind. It's funny you say that because doing this you know insurance company you buy insurance and increments. Rarely do you run across a $38,000 policy. You see $10,000, $25,000, $500,000, $100,000, $250,000, $500,000, $1 million. So when they're holding up that sign saying my attorney got me $92,000, well, how much was the coverage? How much was your claim worth? $92,000 on a $250,000 claim is nothing to brag about.

Matt Dolman:

No. And also and I often say is that personal injury is probably one of the easiest areas to practice, one of the hardest areas to practice correctly. So you see a lot of guys who even hang out their shingle doing criminal family, but they also do PI. You never see guys out there who do PI, but also hang out their shingle doing other stuff. But you see many guys hanging out their shingle doing PI or young lawyers coming out of law school, can't get a job who also all of a sudden just start practicing personal injury.

Matt Dolman:

And they don't know what they're doing. And clients don't know the difference because they're unsophisticated consumers who are not doing the research and looking up to see who is the best lawyer in the community. What are the reviews saying? What are the judges and other members of legal profession saying about that lawyer rather going off either an advertisement or maybe something they saw on Facebook or social media, but it's really scary out there.

Stan Gipe:

It is. You and I see it from the inside.

Matt Dolman:

Yes.

Stan Gipe:

So we see what goes on. We've dealt with some of these attorneys. We know who takes things to the mat and who doesn't. And from our side you got the same feel for defense attorneys. I know there are certain defense attorneys that are scared to take this thing to trial and I know there are certain defense attorneys that are chomping at the bit to take things to trial. And I know how to handle cases with both of them, but I can promise you the guys that are scared to take it to trial, I take advantage of them.

Matt Dolman:

No question about it.

Stan Gipe:

I do whatever I can for my client and kind of push, push, push, lean towards trial because I know at the end of the day this guy caves.

Matt Dolman:

Yes. And the one last point I want to make is the skilled lawyer is the guy who can take a $20,000 case and make it worth $80,000, a $35,000 case and make it worth $120,000, $130,000. Changing the dynamics of a case. What most consumers don't understand is there are cases here and there especially surgery cases where the insurance company is going to pay the limits. And even the world's worst attorney is going to get a good settlement on that case. Some cases just pay themselves. It should effect.

Stan Gipe:

Oh, it's true.

Matt Dolman:

And that's when you see that billboard with Johnny Johnson got me $850,000. Well, if you were hit by Pepsi baling truck and you had some serious injuries, it's not shocker. We're not surprised you got a great settlement, but what did he leave on the table? Or maybe he didn't leave anything on the table. Maybe he got you the entire amount and that's minus the attorney fees or God knows what, but that's just one instance.

Matt Dolman:

What about all the other cases? That's why it's so deceptive when you see a lawyer putting a settlement amount on or what I got a client. What about every other case in your office? Without knowing the actual facts about the case and what may have been left on the table or how serious the injuries are, it really doesn't mean anything.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah. The number alone doesn't mean anything.

Matt Dolman:

Now, they said it had a $10,000 offer and they got the client $260,000. My previous attorney got a $12,000 offer and then Johnny Johnson got me $418,000. Then I might be impressed. That's very impressive.

Stan Gipe:

It'd be like me coming up to you, Matt, and saying, hey, I sold my car for $10,000. Is that a good deal or a bad deal?

Matt Dolman:

What's the make? What's the model?

Stan Gipe:

What kind of car did you have? You can't do it in a vacuum. So these numbers don't mean a lot. And like you said, we're not disparaging any one particular firm, but what I'm trying to make people see is that what you see on the billboard is a lot of times like on your package of food, you ever see that serving suggestion?

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. Of course.

Stan Gipe:

That's what they put on there to let you know that, hey, what you see on the package is a little different than what's inside. We've done something else to it besides, pull it out of the box. That's what you're getting on the billboard.

Matt Dolman:

Exactly.

Stan Gipe:

It's not-

Matt Dolman:

Or television ads.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah. It's not necessarily what you're going to get when you open up the box and get in there. While you look there and you're entranced by John Morgan, we know John Morgan's voice on the radio. You know you get entranced by it and people are impressed by it. Don't expect that you're going to hear John Morgan's voice one time.

Matt Dolman:

You're probably almost certainly never going to meet him. He's not going to be your lawyer. He's not going to show up in court. He's a brilliant marketer and a great visionary and a hell of a business owner. They got a great law firm. No question about it. But the law, the actual commercial itself is very deceptive to your average consumer.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely. And then to take it to the next level I've sometimes get a little bit of offense out there where some of the commercials start to try to be smudge the rest of the attorneys out there. Hey, you, if you've made the wrong decision, you've gone to a different attorney you can always switch and come to us.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. So your lawyer has these fake awards or this, that, and the other when same lawyers have the same nonsense awards. And we agree with that. When Morgan is saying his latest ads about lawyers purchasing awards, it happens everywhere. Look more at the reviews, the results they've obtained. It just seems like now he's attacking other lawyers in the community or some of these guys who've seen commercials or lawyers I personally have fired myself. What does that tell you? You know the whole story, have you spoken to that lawyer? I mean, advertising has taken on it's own new face and it's getting more and more slimy out there.

Stan Gipe:

And I'm going to tell you, the best way to do this is when you're sitting there, When you're looking at radio, when you're listening to radio, when you're watching TV, you're being fed what they want you to eat. That attorney has picked out what inform they want to convey to you. When you start going to the Internet and you start looking around on the Internet, sometimes you find a little bit richer information because that attorney is not necessarily always in control of everything that gets put out

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. They're not going to be able to put themselves in the best life possible.

Stan Gipe:

Right. So if you get out there and you really want to do some research on your attorneys and you start seeing this stuff on TV, on radio, first thing, go to the Internet, start looking around and start looking for the other side and generally you'll find it.

Matt Dolman:

Correct.

Stan Gipe:

If you search the Internet you can find those bad verdicts. If you search the Internet, you'll find people who were dissatisfied with Morgan or dissatisfied with other firms. But really the Internet is a much richer source of information.

Matt Dolman:

Could not agree more. One thing I meant to ask you about , we could actually mention a lawyer by naming me. There's a billboard that is very prominent at least in Tampa. I think I've seen a few in Pinellas County too. It's a lawyer named Dennis Hernandez an Harvard graduate. I can't tell you how offended I am by that because your average consumer sees that thinks, guy with a Harvard Law.

Stan Gipe:

You're thinking-

Matt Dolman:

He must be better than everyone else there because they didn't go to Harvard Law. And then you ask around the community and this is not poking fun in him. He's I'm sure a fine. I don't know anything about Dennis Hernandez, but I never heard him talk about and hush tone is one of the top guys in town or one of the best trial. I certainly never heard that. Have you?

Stan Gipe:

Well, I've recently seen some stuff Dennis posted up and I know there were several news articles from the St. Pete Times tagged to his postings that painted him in a less than glamorous light. So I do know that recently and you see Harvard Law graduate, but Dennis didn't get his law degree at Harvard.

Matt Dolman:

He got a Duke and then he went and got an LLM at Harvard. I'm not knocking that. Duke is a great law school.

Stan Gipe:

Not to say that Duke is not a fantastic law school, but -

Matt Dolman:

Phenomenon.

Stan Gipe:

...you get out there and you see that, but that's all you know.

Matt Dolman:

No one will be impressed by Duke. Doesn't have the name that Harvard has. Those who are in the know know Duke is a phenomenal law school, top 20 school, but Harvard is Harvard. Harvard, Yale, you think, wow, that is the pillar of academia. But at the same point though, does that make you a better PI lawyer? And he didn't even get a JD there. He got his LLM and something completely different. And it wasn't a personal injury law and he's not talked about it being one of the finest lawyers in town. So it's just so deceptive of your consumers going by and seeing that on the highway and saying, huh, this guy went to Harvard that might be the guy I want to call my PI case.

Stan Gipe:

Well, I'm not telling you when it boils down to it, those of us that have practice in the industry you know who the guys are who have really done stuff that's impressive.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. The hitters.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah. The guys who... You don't see those guys on ads. You don't see those guys on billboards generally. You don't see them with a heavy TV and radio presence.

Matt Dolman:

Well, TV and radio. I have a couple of billboards in the area just to let people know where I am, but you're not seeing me as a big media guy. The guys you're seeing all over the place usually are not the guys who are the biggest hitters.

Stan Gipe:

No, they're not.

Matt Dolman:

I'll make an exception from Morgan. That being that they have some of the top trial lawyers in the state, their firm, it's a huge firm though. Not every lawyer is with the same quality, you mentioned that earlier, but the majority of these guys who are mass advertisers and you see Jack Burns and Jack has got your back. I mean, do you think if you call up on the phone Jack is going to be the one answering it or Jack is going to give you a cell phone number? And if you're doing that much volume, how is that even possible?

Stan Gipe:

It's not. There's a lot of people that move statewide firms. And like I say, you can't sit here and say you're going get a bad attorney when you go in there. It's like a box of cracker jacks. You don't know what prize you're going to get when you open it up, but do you really want to take that chance with your claim?

Matt Dolman:

No, not at all.

Stan Gipe:

Do you want to open the random box of cracker jacks or do you want to go to someone where you got an idea of who's going to be handling it, who you're going to be talking to? Is that person that did the sign up? Is that person that talked to you about your claim really going to be handling it or is he just telling you a bunch of stuff and then handing it off to someone else?

Matt Dolman:

And majority of those big volume shops that's what happens That lawyer doesn't have the time to go sign up the client. Doesn't have the time to go meet the client, certainly is not giving out their cell phone number. After hours you have a problem kind of screwed. You're dealing with paralegal or legal assistant.

Stan Gipe:

At best.

Matt Dolman:

At best. If anyone does return your call.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah. I was going to say, after hours you're lucky a lot of times if anyone is calling you back.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. It's a little different when you go to a boutique shop, a smaller firm and you get more personal attention. It does not have anything to do with the quality of a lawyer.

Stan Gipe:

No, and in fact sometimes it's a higher quality of lawyer because what you'll find is that if you are one of those top performers, if you are able to get those verdicts, if you are willing to take cases to trial typically you're not looking to collect a salary from someone else. You can make more money getting out there and pushing it yourself.

Matt Dolman:

Great point. Nor do you need mass advertising to bring in the cases because other lawyers or consumers are funding you based on your reputation, getting those referrals.

Stan Gipe:

And you see that all over the place in all kinds of industries.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. Never need to go to television or radio.

Stan Gipe:

Don't look very far. In any industry if you've got someone that's out there and they're the best in the brightest, they go out and do it themselves. They open their own shop. They're not sitting there working for someone for salary forever.

Matt Dolman:

Think about that. That's a great point to finish on. Stan, how do our consumers reach you?

Stan Gipe:

, they can find me anytime at: 727461

Matt Dolman:

-: 8841

Stan Gipe:

Hey, thanks for having me.

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The information presented is not a substitute for consulting with an attorney, nor does tuning into this podcast constitute an attorney-client relationship of any kind. Any case result information provided on any portion of this podcast should not be understood as a promise of any particular result in a future case. Dolman Law Group, big firm results, small firm personal attention.