Insulating Your Practice Against Big Tech Invasion with Bob Simon

Voiceover:

After an accident, minutes matter. Your words and actions matter even more. You need help and you need it now. This is David Vs Goliath, brought to you by Dolman Law Group accident injury lawyers. A boutique firm with a reputation for going head to head with the insurance company giants, and putting people over profits.

Matt Dolman:

Welcome to another episode of the David and Goliath podcast, I'm Matt Dolman. I'm here with my partner in crime, well, while we try to avoid committing crime. It's Stan Gipe. Stan?

Stan Gipe:

Hey. Today, we're kind of lucky because we got a third guest with us today to bat some stuff around with, and that's Bob Simon.

Matt Dolman:

So, Bob Simon comes from the Simon Law Group in Los Angeles. And I'm not here to, he can give himself a better introduction than I can. But I'm not even sure about that. I've done quite a bit of studying on Bob, and I've been following him on his podcast, Burden of Proof. I've seen him and followed him probably loosely for about two years now on Instagram. He's got a hell of a personality, he's different than pretty much any other lawyer I've ever dealt with before. He's a normal human being.

Matt Dolman:

Most lawyers, and I hate to say this, they kind of have like a D-bag element to them and they're a little full of themselves. I don't think this guy is full himself in the slightest. He's got a very intriguing personality, and he's probably one of the two or three most successful trial lawyers of his generation. There's there's Nick Rowley, there's Bob Simon, and I don't even know who would fit into number three. Bob's had a number of verdicts over 10 million dollars in settlements as well. He's known throughout the country, his name comes up regularly in conversations with some of the best trial lawyers. They already know who he is, and I don't even know how much he knows about that. So, I'll let Bob introduce himself and then we're going to take it away. We have some interesting topics to cover today.

Bob Simon:

Am I allowed to cuss on this podcast? What's the deal?

Matt Dolman:

Oh yeah. Dude, I curse like a sailor. Of course.

Bob Simon:

with my twin brother back in: 2009

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. Take us through, so you have a collaborative effort with a number of younger lawyers, or lawyers who are solo practitioners, or those who may not have the financial resources that Simon Law Group has. How do you set it up? What are you looking for in terms of partnerships with other attorneys in the area, in terms of your colleagues? And what really is, what is Justice HQ? Is it just office sharing?

Bob Simon:

No. So, everybody assumes that Justice HQ is just like WeWork for lawyers, but the office space solution is probably the last part of the benefit of the membership people take advantage of. I mean, I predicted long before the pandemic that lawyers should have a higher quality of life, they should work virtually. They should just have a flex office space, and share resources across the board, but be completely independent. So we started Justice HQ, and it's a membership based, and in exchange for their monthly membership fees they get access to collaboration. We have virtual and in person mentorship. We have a lot of big dogs like myself, Gary [Dordich], the people for, like you've mentioned, that are members there.

Bob Simon:

hen I started my firm, I paid: 1750

Bob Simon:

So if everybody could be on the same platform, everybody can be consistent, that makes it a seamless process. So at Justice HQ, I see cases where they're bringing in a motion writing department for 5%, they're bringing somebody to actually litigate and to take the depositions for a third. Then somebody's financing a case for 50%, and being the trial house. So, you have five or six firms on the same pleading working together. And I think that's the only way that we're going to really defeat this, which is coming man, the Amazon law of the world, which we're seeing in Texas right now. So, long since I predicted it, it's coming to fruition. And we're ready for it, bro.

Matt Dolman:

We're jumping all over the place here, but real quick, so what is going to happen now in California with, is it the baby bar? What's the whole story with Kim Kardashian, and I'm realizing now Arizona and Utah are allowing non-lawyers to be partners of lawyers. And what's next in California? I can tell you what's going to go on here in Florida, but what does the future of law look like in the next five years through the lens of Bob Simon?

Bob Simon:

Yeah, dude. So, I've long said that big tech will come in some form or fashion, and they'll do it under the guile of, "This is an efficiency win for consumers." And we saw what Netflix has done. It's the Netflix model, man. They're going to come in, they're going to drop contingency fees to like 10, 15%, bleed out the market trying to bring everybody in house, and then raise the rates. They're going to gobble all the market share and be in the red for years, because they know how big the... It's a multi billion dollar industry doing the single event consumer stuff, and the mass torts.

Bob Simon:

So Arizona, you can have a full law firm owned by non-lawyers, pay referral fees to non-lawyers. I mean, it's the wild, wild West. California right now, they're in the sandbox, the state bar, which I think I keep telling people to defund the state bar in California. It's fucking dumb. But they're allowing para-professionals, they call it. You get a certificate, you can practice essentially law, which is crazy to me. But look, it's going to come in some form or fashion. I predict in California, five years from now, they're going to have billboards for Amazon Law, they're going to try to take a percentage of each case that comes through the door. Heck, it might be more efficient. It might be better for the consumer to see it, get access to it, and they can pair it right with a really good lawyer right away. Again-

Matt Dolman:

But won't that work for estate planning, transactional law, corporate, but not so much for single event?

Bob Simon:

Well, that's the thing-

Matt Dolman:

Where it involves heavy litigation? How do you replicate that in a mass model?

Bob Simon:

And that's the thing. The thing you need a license for as a lawyer, what do you need a license for? Take depositions, be in trial, the FaceTime stuff. So, I've always said let's insulate ourselves with the thing you need a license for. Can they automate contract writing? They probably can. There's AI out there that I've seen that can do it. What about automating estate planning? Yeah. I've seen AI that can do it right. Then you just need a lawyer to review it at the end and rubber stamp. Like I've seen AI that like Casetext used, I know the CEO of Casetext, and they're using that to predict what motions you need with what case law, and just drop it in. This shit is coming, man. It's real.

Bob Simon:

But I think as lawyers, we got to be ahead of the technology. We got to be ahead of where this is going to go, and insulate ourselves at the same time. So with Justice HQ, we have a case exchange where you can plug the cases into the experts, one way portal in. So hey Amazon Law, you want to plug in these cases on an infinite scale, with lawyers that know what they're doing, because every member has to be approved to come in, or else they get bottle pluggin. They're all great lawyers. Plug it in, look to see who you like, negotiate your fee, sign your fee share agreement, have the client sign off, off you go. So, that's where I think it's going to be in five years.

Stan Gipe:

Well, we already have some AI lawyers out there practicing law essentially. And I want to say their win rates are over 50%, even from an artificial intelligence standpoint, without having real people involved. It's simple warranty and breach of contract type of claims on small stuff, but it's already starting to blur the lines of what is the practice of law? How much assistance can a computer or AI give a consumer without actually crossing that line?

Bob Simon:

Yeah. Look, at the bare essence of what lawyers are, is we resolve disputes. We get things handled, whether it's your personal injury contracts or real estate, whatever the fuck you're doing, right? The law right now, people are intimidated by the court system, filing fees, having access to the courts, and then getting drowned out by big law. I mean, they have infinite amounts of money to drown you out in expert costs and all this. We've seen the decentralization of money, we've seen Bitcoin, cryptocurrency. And I think that it's going to come, people think it's scary, but the Metaverse is going to decentralize the legal system as well. I said that people should be doing what I to do, something called the Meta Court. People come and resolve their disputes for free. You just have one rule of law, and that's the rule of equity. You do what's fair, that's it. America can vote, you can livestream, it could be entertaining at the same time.

Bob Simon:

But I think the law's going to be the ADR, the alternative dispute resolution things, I think a lot of people are going to be doing that for close to free and getting out of the court system to do it. It's going to be an opt-in, but I think that's what we're going to start seeing. And I've actually seen with IP, or I think it's with websites, domain names and stuff. They actually have an opt-in kind of tribunal that decides for them now. But again, we're talking about some wild shit. We have a Metaverse event this week, and this is the shit they're going to be talking about.

Matt Dolman:

I mean, you're somewhat insulated. Not to say you're completely insulated, but you're reliant on the lawyers to bring you cases. But you're dealing with the biggest cases with the biggest amount of damages available, where the insurance company, really their only job in those type of cases is just to mitigate damages. I can't imagine those will ever go to the form of alternative dispute resolution. I don't think you'll ever see where a good portion of your practice goes that route. I think you're okay. But your normal attorney who markets through digital, through, and we talked about this last night, how you're not reliant on Google. And I work with Tennessee Digital, and that was our discussion last night. How's this going to affect your normal lawyer, who is at Justice HQ? The guy who gets cases off via TV, radio, billboards, or another medium like digital?

Bob Simon:

I think that's the market that'll get hurt the most, if you have the non-lawyers coming in. Because they're going to have... I see it in every industry. My wife has a whole eCommerce business, skincare and supplements. And whenever you have companies like one of her competitors, AG Greens, and they had 150 million dollars raise. How the fuck are you going to compete with somebody that's spending $10 million a month simply in marketing? You can't, unless you have the money to do it. So when they come in, those are the people that are going to get hurt the most. That's why I created this whole, Justice HQ is an insulation for those folks. Because if they are specialists in the litigation, or state planning, or in trials, whatever specific vehicle they are, those are things you need a license for. Those are the people that these big marketers are going to look for to outsource and get a percentage of the fee from.

Matt Dolman:

Understood.

Bob Simon:

So, a lot of members of Justice HQ, maybe about 10% of the members are the ones that do a lot of digital marketing, advertising, and then they kick the overflow to the other members. But most of the members pride themselves on being very good lawyers in their space. Sometimes it's pre-lit, sometimes it's litigation, sometimes it's trial, sometimes it's motion writing. But if you have specialists, if you specialize in something, I think that's where you're going to win.

Matt Dolman:

Won't pre-lit get kicked to the wayside though?

Bob Simon:

I think it may, but I still think that smartly, if you have Amazon Law, for instance, come in, wouldn't it make more sense for them to kick their cases to a bunch of pre-lit firms and take 10%, and do it en masse volume?

Matt Dolman:

Yes.

Bob Simon:

I mean, that would sense to me.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. Especially if those firms are going to add a lot of value to the cases, 100%.

Bob Simon:

Correct. And that cuts their overhead too, man. I think law firms have a lot of fucking bloat on overhead. We have 70 some employees, everybody's virtual. We come into the office space when we want to. We give everybody, the staff has every other Friday off completely. We save them home workstations. Lawyers got to learn to not have that trophy office space so much, and just get ready for it. Plus dude, I'm going to Europe for like two months this summer with my wife and two kids. We have another kid on the way, you can fucking practice law-

Matt Dolman:

I saw that, by the way. Congratulations.

Bob Simon:

Thanks, man. We have a crazy story, which we don't need to share here. But anyway, you can practice law everywhere. What else do we need to be in person for? Trying cases for me, I can take deposition virtually. So whatever, plan around it.

Matt Dolman:

As in trials and mediations, yeah, you can be virtual for pretty much everything else.

Bob Simon:

I do all my mediations, I had one this afternoon virtually.

Matt Dolman:

COVID has changed the entire universe anyway, very few people are going to come to the office.

Stan Gipe:

No, you get very little stuff in the office these days. There's very little face to face. And for 90% of what we do, I feel like it's effective in the virtual world.

Matt Dolman:

When I only come to the office to escape home. I love my wife, but I don't want to be around her 24 seven. And she works for the firm, she's a trial lawyer. So, last thing I want to do is be around her all day at the house as well, and we have nothing to talk about. I can't even make up stuff that I did that day just to entertain her, because she saw it. I sat there and did nothing, I was just in my office.

Bob Simon:

Matt, I'll give you advice my dad gave me: would you rather be happy or right?

Matt Dolman:

Happy.

Bob Simon:

With your wife, would you rather be happy or right?

Matt Dolman:

Happy. It's why I give in on every argument.

Stan Gipe:

Yep, that's it.

Matt Dolman:

Unless it really matters to me, I'm giving in every single time.

Bob Simon:

ced since we started March of: 2020

Stan Gipe:

Well Bob, I can tell you, I didn't ever do any work on the defense side, okay? And I have muscled my way up the learning curve through brute force. There wasn't assistance, there wasn't this older partner that had a bunch of trials or anything like that. The very first trial I ever saw was one where I was lead counsel.

Bob Simon:

Yep, same.

Stan Gipe:

And that's a tough way to move up the learning curve. It's slow, you learn from your mistakes and you really, you don't have anyone you can talk to that you truly trust and rely on, and don't know, hey, are they just telling me two thirds of the story, so I will refer it over to them? Are they trying to make it seem too difficult so they can milk it? And it's tough to get a feel for that system, if you don't have people around you. So I see what you're doing, being invaluable to people who have got the skillset without the experience.

Matt Dolman:

My entire background is baptism by fire, and to learn from someone else.

Bob Simon:

It is. And I had the same, I like to tell people it took me a few years to get where I was comfortably. This would accelerate anybody's career path. So perfect example, so Arash Homampour is one of the most gifted trial lawyers ever. He had a 60 million verdict last week, 60. And this like his 10th eight figure verdict in the past five years. All single event stuff. So right away, he's a member of Justice HQ. He sets up like, "How I did it, members only," to show them how he did everything. And he shares his secrets as he goes. But that's the whole purpose of this community, Justice HQ, is everybody's giving to a fault, and everybody rises together.

Bob Simon:

So if we teach that new lawyer, which I didn't have that mentorship for a few years, I had to force myself in. Just asking questions trying a case, to a listserv. That's fucking terrible. You have to find that mentor help guide your career? And if you could do mentorship on scale, which we're trying to do to help people. I probably do five or six zoom calls a week with strangers about how I want to start my firm, what's the best path for you? But I truly believe that, dude, if I had that kind of help from jump street... I didn't know what the fuck I was doing, I was trying to run a business, trying to try cases, trying to litigate cases and get cases. It was madness.

Matt Dolman:

And none of this, they teach you in law school.

Bob Simon:

No. And dude, I just spoke at Pepperdine, my law school I went to last week. And I was like, "You guys need to teach this course." They have me come back like once a year to talk about how to actually start your firm and make money. And I was like, "This shouldn't be a one and a half hour event for your three Ls. This should be a class."

Matt Dolman:

100%. There should be a lot more practical skills.

Bob Simon:

Law school's just fucked up in general, dude. Why is it not one year of learning, and then two years of an apprenticeship, so you actually know what the fuck you're doing?

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. Should be a lot more practical skills, a lot less academic theory.

Bob Simon:

It wouldn't be as profitable for them, Matt.

Matt Dolman:

No, no, of course.

Stan Gipe:

I remember when I got my Bar license, I was finally in an attorney. And I sat there and I was like, oh, this is scary. I don't know shit. But I now have all this authority, and everyone around me thinks I know it. So if I say it, it's the gospel, unless someone else knows more.

Bob Simon:

Well, that's the whole thing is everybody... You don't know what you don't know. Most people, if you know a lawyer, they'll just ask you a question. If you answer it, they're like, "That's the fucking answer. I mean, he's a lawyer." They don't know if that's your space, if you're a bankruptcy lawyer, they don't know how many years you've been practicing. I tell all these lawyers the same thing. They're like, "What if I don't know the answer to this person that wants to hire me?" I was like, "Who the fuck cares? Just go ask somebody else, get the answer and tell them. Be their general counsel, whatever."

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, perception is reality. Act as if.

Bob Simon:

That's right. You should put that on a t-shirt, dude. I like that.

Matt Dolman:

Act as if?

Bob Simon:

Yeah.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. So how big is Justice HQ now? How many members?

Bob Simon:

We have about 200 paying firms.

Matt Dolman:

Wow. Is that where most of the trial work comes from, is through members of Justice HQ?

Bob Simon:

No. I mean, I do get a lot of trial work for my firm through Justice HQ. Because I try a ton of spine cases, so people know any time there's fusion up, they consult me. And if I like it, we run it together. I get a lot of business as the, we only let so many of the premier member mentors into the... Like my firm pays 20,000 a month to have access. The big dogs pay 20,000 a month, because one, it's solving our office space based solutions. Like me, Gary Dordich, Brett Sachs, Sinkton and Schreiber. And Chris Dolan.

Matt Dolman:

I know all those names.

Bob Simon:

Because we have access to this membership. These are all big trial lawyers, but they're there to help people to mentor. If they need help funding cases, we're here for that as well. But the goal is to have... I have a target on my back, because a lot of these big firms are pissed that their associates are leaving to start their own firm. And then all these other people that were getting referral to these cases, are referring into members of Justice HQ. Because they see the collaborative event, it's like, well, they can give it to Joe Solo, give him a third, and they know that it's mentoring on steroids. People have set up a case collaboration every week, where they come and talk about their cases, and people just round table them for free. Where else are you going to get that?

Matt Dolman:

Nowhere.

Bob Simon:

Nowhere.

Matt Dolman:

Are you looking to do this in other states, or just you're sticking with California? Because I know you're starting to make, you have a presence now in Texas.

Bob Simon:

Here's the struggle, man. It's like quality's the A one, and we're about to open up our fourth space in San Diego in probably May or June. We can't get the spaces out fast enough, but at the same time we have to have quality control in the community. Because the credibility's on the line, you have to have the right people mentoring and you have to have the right lawyers that are good at what they do, in order for it to succeed. So, short answer is yes. I'd love to scale this across the country, but hey man, I got other jobs too. I got into directing more. My sister, actually she's the CEO now, so she's running the show.

Matt Dolman:

At Simon Law Group?

Bob Simon:

At Justice HQ.

Matt Dolman:

At Justice HQ, okay. At Simon Law Group, so you run the trials. I know there's a few guys, Greyson Goody, there's Sevy Fisher. I've looked at your roster, and you've got some real trial lawyers there. And I was looking them up all on Verdict Search last night, they got a lot of nice verdicts.

Bob Simon:

And we haven't even reported the last few. We've had, I think eight verdicts since the beginning of last year, at least. Seven to eight figure verdicts. But yet, I've made a very big point of when I started my firm, to not be the end all be all, so I trained all the other lawyers to do exactly what I've done. So we have, I'd say eight trial lawyers at our firm that can replicate the same result?

Matt Dolman:

Who runs the business on a day to day basis.

Bob Simon:

My twin brother, Brad runs the business day to day.

Matt Dolman:

Okay, got you. That's cool. And you can trust him, that's awesome.

Bob Simon:

He works in his underwear in his closet, in his house. He never really leaves. Plays Dungeons and Dragons at night, and does that.

Matt Dolman:

Is he like you?

Bob Simon:

He's not... We're identical twins, we're very alike. But he's at the same time, much more private, likes to be behind the curtain. If people see Brad, it's like seeing a unicorn, you rarely see it.

Matt Dolman:

Okay. He's the puppet master?

Bob Simon:

He's the puppet master, yeah. He's the type of guy that's like, "Hey, take X amount out of the general account." I mean, I don't even know how much money's in there at all times. He'll just run all that stuff and just like, "Here you go." "Thanks, Dad."

Matt Dolman:

So, let's transition a bit now. You have, it's a tour, it starts tomorrow. You have a number of big trial lawyers associated with this in Kentucky. It's the Bourbon of Proof tour, which is the same name of your podcast, which brings up the fascination, and we're looking at your bottles behind you. You love whiskey.

Bob Simon:

Always have, man, always have.

Matt Dolman:

What's your choice whiskey?

Bob Simon:

'll drink a Weller Full Proof: 1907

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, I saw. Is he out in California now from Pittsburgh?

Bob Simon:

My dad retired from UPS as a truck driver for 35 years. That day he and I... I flew from LA to Pittsburgh, picked him up. We drove a U-Haul, and didn't stop. And he lived with me for six months, and then he's off on his own, but he's like, "Fuck this, I'm out of here."

Matt Dolman:

Pretty cool. Yeah, I saw him on your social media profile. A couple of videos.

Bob Simon:

He's hilarious.

Matt Dolman:

He seems like a funny guy.

Bob Simon:

I spend almost every day with my dad.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, I see where that comes from. That's cool, I'm best friends with my father. What's the next step with Justice HQ? What's the next step of your career?

Bob Simon:

The next step is for the first time, we're going to start allowing non-members to send cases into the case exchange, or the marketplace. I'd like to be able to put up all the locations, not even within California, but outwards as well. And it's funny, Matt, other people reaching out to me nationally that just have a huge interest. And one of the biggest things is these, outside money, I have a very big philosophy in life, never to take outside money or control. That's just always how I've operated. I came from nothing, and I'll leave with nothing if I have to, but I don't want to be beholden to somebody else. So, I'd like to scale Justice HQ strategically, smartly, work with our board and my sisters who run the company, and have the biggest... It's membership based, it's not a law firm, but it would be the biggest a la carte, collective alliance of lawyers that the world has ever seen. That might.

Matt Dolman:

That's pretty cool. I dig this. This is completely different than anything else I've seen.

Stan Gipe:

No, it's interesting. When I started looking into it, Matt said, "Hey, look at what this guy's doing." I started going a little deeper, and it's a completely different take on the practice. And when you're looking from the inside out, I'm sitting here going, my God, look at all the advantages you have as a practitioner, being involved with something like this. Especially on the lower end practitioners, where you haven't been through it, you haven't seen it, you haven't really been punched in the face and had to respond yet to stuff. You haven't had something explode on you in trial, and go the other way than you thought it was. The test, what do you do? How do you handle it when that happens? And to have that resource there as a young attorney, you don't get it without either giving up basically all your cases or all your money.

Bob Simon:

Well, you find, I found some amazing trial lawyers. Because I see it, they're willing to take 10, 20% to try a case, because their overhead's so low, like, "Okay, I'll come and do this with you." You just have to pay 50, 60% for that. But you don't, and why should you? If this is all the piece that you need, sometimes you need just to win an MSJ to carry. So, why do you need X, Y, Z to have that happen? But what's interesting, we've seen, is people are so excited to help each other and help people be successful, is I see people trying cases with other folks for free. I'll be your co-counsel, your crutch that you need. I've tried a bunch of cases, let's go in for a week and we'll do this together. For free, just for fun.

Bob Simon:

This is the type of atmosphere that does exist out there, if you tune into the right people, the unselfish fucks. We have a big no crooks, no creeps mentality at Justice HQ. But if you have the right people, it works, man. And why shouldn't it be that way? All of us here, we do work for free all the time. All of us, because we love it, we love helping people. And we have profitable avenues the other way. And it's very exciting to see people that are very experienced trial lawyers, that are very successful, just helping people for free every day.

Matt Dolman:

That's really cool.

Bob Simon:

Because I can see the virtual platform light up with questions for answers, that kind of shit.

Matt Dolman:

How big, I know you're involved with Trial Lawyers University. I saw you on there as well. How important is it to have that mentor? What stock do you put into trial lawyers, college, the Jerry Spence School, Trial Lawyers University. Is it necessary and vital to take the next step as a trial lawyer? You tell me, is it a cult? Half of these seem like a cult.

Bob Simon:

Yeah. Some of that, so I've never done, I'm not part of the Jerry Spence stuff. I know a lot of people that have gone through it. Nick Rowley's one of my very good friends, he's one of the leaders and all that stuff. So I think if you want to be a very successful trial lawyer, you have to have mentors. When I started doing it, my first try, I tried a freaking dog bite case in Compton. By the way, I'm a purebred too, never did defense work, so there you go. I got 250K, when my firm thought I'd get zero, and just went to Compton, to try to figure it out. And after that I was like, this shit's really hard. So I started my own firm. Of course I did, because I thought this was really hard, so why not make it even more difficult?

Bob Simon:

And then first year out I tried three cases, did pretty well, but again no mentorship. So I was like, fuck, this is going to put an ulcer in my stomach. In fact, I think it probably did. So I stocked Gary Dordich, who's now one of my best friends, but he ended up being my mentor. And I would just find him at events and fucking pull on him, and then take him out to lunch. And then I would give him 50% of my fee to work on cases. He'd front the cost. And I did the same thing with Brian Panish, we tried some cases together where they would take 50%, front the cost, but I would get the most valuable experience in the world, which is trying a case with these rock stars. And seeing how they do it on the back end, most importantly. And to see the team atmosphere that you need to do to succeed. And then learn from it and replicate.

Bob Simon:

So it started, 95% of my business is referrals from other lawyers. And I took on the same rule that they did, and now I try to do it on scale. But you have to find the metrics. So now it's really fucking... You can go to conferences, you can see it on social media, you can slide into their DMS. Before you had to fucking stalk people. Now, everybody's accessible.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, it's a lot easier. It's one of the benefits of social media, one of the few.

Bob Simon:

Yeah. But yeah, it's way easier than people think it is. And people are way more willing to help than people realize. And well, what's the worst thing that can happen, they tell you to fuck off or they don't respond? Who gives a shit?

Matt Dolman:

That's always been my theory about rejection. So I was born this ugly face, my father told me, "If you ask out enough women, somebody's going to say yes." So, it's just not having the fear of the rejection itself. And that's what fuels me.

Bob Simon:

And people ask me like, "How did you marry Christine Bullock?" Everybody knows my wife, and I was like, "Why? Because I fucking talk"

Matt Dolman:

By the way, yes she is... Stan, if you haven't looked, she's a good looking lady.

Stan Gipe:

No, I hadn't seen yet.

Matt Dolman:

This guy is dating way above the rim, way above.

Bob Simon:

Yeah. I marry up, dude. And people are like, "How did you do this?" "Because I fucking talked to her." I wasn't afraid to get rejected. And then we found out we were both from Pittsburgh, and off you go. Been together ever since.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. What's that quote from Wayne Gretzky, you miss all the shots you don't take?

Bob Simon:

I love that phrase]. Dude, we actually, I randomly golfed with Wayne Gretzky, and it was one of the funniest experience in my life. It was him, John McEnroe, and there were two other random people. Just random. And I'm not a golfer, I was just playing with people because I had to do business with them. Yeah, Wayne was pretty hammered, and fucking put it within three feet of the pin on a par three, and just laughed his ass off. Very nice guy.

Matt Dolman:

Incredible athlete.

Bob Simon:

Yeah.

Matt Dolman:

Gotcha. Anything else coming up exciting, any trials coming up? I know you mentioned you had about 10 of them that are scheduled, slated to go over the next year.

Bob Simon:

We have about 10 set every month. I was supposed to start one next Tuesday, case settled for two and a half million dollars today. Wouldn't you know it, as soon as... Well, yesterday, as soon as the judge said, "There's no more continuances, I'm ordering the jury panel." Sure enough, things cave.

Bob Simon:

So, it's funny how that works. You get in a courtroom, the fear is there, and then they don't want to get into the ring with you. We were talking about this before when we got on, but there were years where I was not taken seriously as a young lawyer, and trying seven cases a year and just fucking hitting monster verdicts. And every new insurer would try to challenge me, like how's this guy going to get five to eight million on these fusion cases? How is this possible? So, I remember one year I tried four against State Farm in a row, San Diego, Orange County, LA, and then up in San Francisco. And every one of these verdicts were like three to five million for a single level fusion?

Matt Dolman:

Are you serious? A single level cervical fusion or a lumbar?

Bob Simon:

One was lumbar, probably each, one of each.

Matt Dolman:

I mean, it's still very impressive. Down here in Florida the average verdict on a single level, let's just say an ACDF case, is probably 250, three. Lumbar fusion, three to five.

Bob Simon:

No these are-

Matt Dolman:

A couple outlier million dollar verdicts, rare.

Bob Simon:

I had one, one of those was actually a lumbar vasectomy case, and got 1.8 million in Orange County. 1.8 million, no lost wages. Great recovery.

Matt Dolman:

Wow.

Bob Simon:

in San Bernardino, I think in: 2017

Bob Simon:

And the lady with PTSD, she testified in her debt. There were no doctors, there were nothing else. She just went up there and talked about how terrible her life has been since she was in this horrific crash. We had no specials, and people were like, "How the fuck did that happen?" And I was like, "Because we pulling up] what it's worth, and we asked for it." They tried to appeal, they ended up paying everything. But yeah man, it's just, don't let other people tell you what the value of somebody's loss is. You should assign your value, be confident about it and say it.

Matt Dolman:

I really like that piece of advice Dordich gave you, that you can't ask for too much.

Bob Simon:

That's right. So, if a jury comes in and says, "We would have given you a few million more, if you asked," dude, that would be a knife in the heart.

Matt Dolman:

Oh my God, yeah.

Bob Simon:

Yeah. I like to always say in rebuttal, I was like-

Matt Dolman:

If you shoot for the stars, they're not going to give you mud either. If they feel like they got to compromise, at least they're going to come much above where you wanted to be to begin with.

Bob Simon:

One of my biggest, I had a 16 and a half million dollar verdict on a no property damage case for a guy that had a cervical and a lumbar fusion. But this guy was special, these guys didn't offer me anything. The jury gave me a hundred percent of what I asked for, and it was on a dare. My co-counsel Greyson Goody, who's now one of our partners, and he's about a lawyer, it was the first case he tried, he was my co-counsel. Right before I started to go off to pick the jury, I was like, "You know what, I'm just going to say a number, what I'm going to ask for general damage. I love our client, he's the best dude ever." And I was like, "I'm thinking about saying we're after like four or five million." And he's like, "Say 15."

Bob Simon:

I was like, "Dude, that's crazy." He's like, "I dare you to go up there and say, you're asking for 15 million." I was like, "You know what, fuck it. I'm going to do it." So I did it, and then the defense starts objecting about asking for money. And then he ended up saying it more than I did in jury selection, jurors getting off because they can't give that kind of money, and the judge was very good about it. And the jury gave a hundred percent, they gave 15 million for pain and suffering, and they gave the rest for specialists.

Matt Dolman:

Wow.

Bob Simon:

Yeah. A hundred percent paid, by the way. That was another one of those State Farm ones in LA.

Matt Dolman:

On those fusion cases, are you reliant on life care plans, or how do you justify how much those damages are worth over the remainder of their life?

Bob Simon:

You just say it, man. I use a pretty good analogy. Whatever venue I'm in, I pick whatever famous athlete's there that they may not know about that signed a big contract. I had Jared Goth one year in LA when they signed him as a rookie. And it was like, they signed this guy to a three year $60 million contract, three years, $60 million. And he's good at what he does. He's maybe one of the best, probably not. But that was his worth, that's what he paid. And it's like, here's my client over here, that's the best of what he does, and that's suffering every single day. I outline everything that's happened to him. I was like, "And I'm asking you for eight million over 40 years? Eight million for 40 years, for a contract that he didn't get into any volition of his own? He had no say in getting on a contract, the defendant made that. This guy's living in chronic pain, and all I'm asking you for is a reasonable amount for a lifetime of pain. And it's got to be fair today, tomorrow, 30 years from now, 40 years from now."

Bob Simon:

So, the biggest number is always the future pain and suffering. And I usually go over milestones about like, what's real for you, like walking your daughter down the aisle, what's it going to be like using a cane? What's it going to be like having to sit down while taking that first dance, or popping a Vicodin? Or using, getting your lead put in your spinal cord stimulator, so you can stand, going on vacation with your grandkids. But it's all general damages.

Matt Dolman:

Makes sense. I like it. So, are you open to collaborative efforts throughout the country?

Bob Simon:

That's the whole point of what I like to do, man.

Matt Dolman:

So, I know I broached the subject, but for those that are going to listen to this and there's going to be quite a few, are you willing to come into Florida, for instance? If one of my colleagues has a big case, or in Colorado, or Georgia, or New York and go try a case?

Bob Simon:

I'm licensed in California in Texas, but I've had pro hoc situations in other states. I had a trial in Iowa. Nick Rowley and I actually started the trial in Iowa, a wrongful death one in the summer. They settled right before we were picking a jury in a gymnasium, which was cool. But we had different errors and a wrongful death case. But yeah, I have few cases in the Dakotas. I'm from Pennsylvania originally, so I get cases here and there. But yeah, 100% open to it.

Matt Dolman:

So, I always say there's a lot of lawyers out there that can, and Stan for instance, is a phenomenal lawyer, he's board certified here in the State of Florida and he's tried some big cases. There's certain lawyers who can try a case, who could try even a spine case, there's fewer that can try the catastrophic injury case, that have swam in those seas before. And if you're doing it for the first time, it's very, very difficult. And if you don't have the financial resource, it becomes almost impossible.

Bob Simon:

Yeah. But-

Matt Dolman:

You don't know what you don't know.

Bob Simon:

Exactly. And I think that those, the easier cases that try are those catastrophic injury. everything's there done for you. The harder cases to try, but I think the most profitable ones, are those which I've made a living off of, just those single event fusion cases, where maybe the impact's not too big.

Matt Dolman:

Well shit, you're hitting them out for millions of dollars, over here in Florida that's an anomaly.

Bob Simon:

Yeah. And now they're settling for those. I mean, these cases that people are like, "How did you get three million on a cervical fusion settlement?" Settlement, right? Or open policy here. Well, that's because they've seen the results that we have. They see the writing on the wall, and it starts with preparation.

Matt Dolman:

Take Stan and I through that real quick. So in Florida, and I don't want to bore you with the litany of how bad faith works here, but generally you got to put the insurance company on notice. Send a demand, give them a chance to make an articulable decision about what the case is worth. And then if they don't act reasonably in lieu of what you've presented to them, and what they could have learned through their own due diligence, then you have a bad faith case. And you've opened the policy, so to speak. How's that work in California?

Bob Simon:

Same, it's the same general concept. There's this subsequent lawsuit, if you have to get the verdict, you can then get assignment of rights, different things. You can litigate a bad faith case. And I've had a few of those, but a lot of big verdicts I've had are all over policy, but they pay them right away because we pepper the filings so far about policy and demands, blah, blah, blah. And now it's come to the point where we're settling a lot of cases for millions over policy limits. All their lawyers that brought us in after they opened up the policy, because they see the writing on the wall. Because that's a double threat.

Bob Simon:

I think those are the easiest cases to get compensated on, because the insurer doesn't want to fuck around with a bad faith case where they get hit for punitive damages. They don't. So, if the policy's definitely open, and there's a big enough injury. They're like, "Shit, we could probably get hit for two or three million from Simon Law Group for this verdict." But then we can look at punitive damages, and aren't sure, suing us as well, they're like, "Fuck that. Take three right now."

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, makes sense. Stan, you got any questions?

Stan Gipe:

No, I've been soaking it all up. It's interesting to hear, it's like you think stuff and you know it, but then when you hear other people say it a lot of times it's kind of inspiring. Because we try to do the same thing down here. It's trying to develop that reputation so that when they see you, they know it's going to be the same thing they got last time.

Stan Gipe:

I will tell you one thing that I think resonated, I heard you say it in one of the blogs or podcasts you had when I was looking at your site was, "Success requires a great partner." That you're not going to do it alone. And Matt and I are new partners after a year, and I can tell you what I've noticed now in changing partnerships is, man, it opened a lot of doors. It's opened a lot of things. And I didn't realize what I was lacking in my prior partnership, until I got into this. And I'm guessing what you're doing with Justice HQ is essentially being that great partner, for new attorneys who are out there on their own.

Bob Simon:

Correct. And it's being that great partner, again partnership on a scale, picking your partner for what you need. Maybe you need to partner with this person on this specific thing. And I teach this to everybody is like, you should only be doing in your practice or your business, what you love to do. All the other things you can do, you can find one, a partner to do it, or outsource it, or you can find somebody who doesn't necessarily have to be a lawyer or a partner to do that type of work you don't want to do. There's just different opportunities. And if people want to... Lawyers have to stop thinking so linear about litigating or trying cases. If you want to make a lot of money in this industry, and do well, you have to think about things from a business perspective.

Bob Simon:

At Justice HQ have a whole channel for entrepreneurism. I'm also in YPO, and there's a whole bunch of stuff about entrepreneurism right there too. So if you can get into these circles where people are talking about different philosophies, and just being inspired in a different way, and really making yourself the dumbest person in the room that you're in, and learning from it, it goes a long way. That's why I really like doing podcasts like this, and listening to other people how they've done it, and then learning from it. Like, I don't really watch a lot of TV. I'll binge watch shows at night with my wife here and there. But it's usually just listening to podcasts, ones like these, ones like How I Built This by Guy Ross, just to understand how to continually doing the cycle, doing it more efficiently, and having higher quality of life. But if you partner right, and you outsource right, you can be never not working, but never actually work at the same time, if that makes sense.

Matt Dolman:

This has been the most interesting podcast we've ever done.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah, I agree.

Matt Dolman:

I don't think you got anything from us, but we didn't... By the way, is that, move over a little bit to, now to your right. Go to your right. Well, now I can see, is that a spine model, or is that an interesting bottle of liquor?

Bob Simon:

This one, that's a spine. That's a lumbar spine.

Matt Dolman:

Okay, I didn't know if that was because of your eclectic collection. I didn't know if that was an interesting liquor bottle.

Bob Simon:

This was my spine model I use for a lot of my trials. I actually, when I was trying a case in Arizona, because I pro hoc'd in there, in a federal case. And the federal judge actually called me Dr. Simon a few times, then she corrected herself. Because I go up and explain things to the jury, because I know this stuff so well. But I like to use it, and I have my little logo on here to sell the jurors, if they want to send it back to the jury room. Go for it.

Matt Dolman:

Nice, nice. This has been the most interesting one we've had, by far and away.

Bob Simon:

Well, fuck, man.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely. I learned more during this podcast, I think, than we gave out. It's been fantastic.

Bob Simon:

Anytime. Yeah, I'm happy to. I like being in these, have a few sips of whiskey with your friends, get in a group of 10 and just spitball shit. That's like my favorite thing in life. Put on a ball game, talk about things. The things that you learn from people in other industries, and different aspects of law, man, it is fucking cool. And you can realize how you can make a lot more mailbox money and do things smartly, just with strategic partnerships.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, we have a very similar mentality, so does Stan.

Bob Simon:

I don't give a fuck, dude. I don't want to do any digital marketing, I don't want to do any intake. I don't want to do any pre-lit, none of that shit.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, that's awesome, dude.

Bob Simon:

do that stuff, so that's it.

Matt Dolman:

You've attained that level now to get that work too. That's pretty cool. How do folks get a hold of you? Let's start with this, how do consumers get a hold of you off the bat? And then how do attorneys and potential colleagues get a hold of you in California and nationwide? If they A, need you on a big case, they want a co-counsel, or B, want to join the collaborative effort at Justice HQ, and stop trying to do this all on their own and banging their head against the wall? And having real trial lawyers, top notch guys, help them out? I'm sure you share forums, meetings and everything else. So, why wouldn't young lawyers do this? And then how do they get a hold of you?

Bob Simon:

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Matt Dolman:

Cool. Well, if anyone needs more information on how to get a hold of Bob Simon and the Simon Law Group, feel free to drop me a line, matt@dolmanlaw, D-O-L-M-A-N, law.com. Call us anytime toll free, 833-55-CRASH. This concludes another episode of the David Vs Goliath Podcast. Bob Simon, it's been a real true pleasure to have you on. Because most lawyers are stuffy assholes, D-bags. There's a few cool people, I hope that I consider myself, I consider myself one of those individuals. I definitely consider you one of those individuals. And this has just been a really, really great opportunity.

Bob Simon:

Well, thanks for having me on. And guy, I just want to let you know that D-bag is a very underused and well appreciated term of mine. So, we got to bring that back, D-bag.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, I usually say douchebag, but I'm avoiding that. I'm just trying to be a little bit more professional, a little bit more buttoned up, so cursing but not too badly. So yeah, D-bag. Just most lawyers are just stuffy, and they're not people you want hang out with on the weekend.

Bob Simon:

No, dude. And that's why I wanted to create this high level membership of, people that you want to avoid, they're out. So, whatever. But yeah, my fantasy baseball league name is the Douche Caboose League, and has been going for 20 years.

Stan Gipe:

Really, love it.

Matt Dolman:

And when are you and the wife expecting?

Bob Simon:

August, so we'll be having our third daughter in August. Girl dad times three.

Matt Dolman:

So, now it goes from man D to zone D?

Bob Simon:

Well, we're going to do the offset two one, inspired by Don Chaney's Temple defense. The offset two three.

Matt Dolman:

Oh yeah, of course. I forgot you're from that area. You're from Pittsburgh. But the whole Philly area is Temple, Villanova, La Salle. There's some good basketball out there in Pennsylvania.

Stan Gipe:

If you're having the baby in August, when are you going to Europe for two months?

Bob Simon:

We're going from may mid-May to mid-July, and then coming back. Actually Gary Dordich, my mentor, his daughter's getting married in Florence. So, we're going over for the wedding and just staying for a long time.

Matt Dolman:

Pretty cool. That's a great trip. Well, appreciate having you, man.

Bob Simon:

Fucking dude, it was always a dream of ours, so why not just do it? Like, whatever.

Matt Dolman:

Take advantage. Anytime you can travel, man.

Bob Simon:

That's right.

Matt Dolman:

If there's one regret I have, is I never did the study abroad.

Bob Simon:

Well, we didn't have money to do that, Matt. I mean, I had to work all the way through everything. So, those kids that studied abroad, I thought were always behind because they weren't making the connections they needed to make. They were fucking around.

Matt Dolman:

Agreed. I grew up without a pot piss in or a window to throw it out of. But yeah, I wish I had those opportunities though, because you never get that back.

Bob Simon:

Yeah, bro. Well, I appreciate you guys. Looking forward to helping people out on scale. And Matt, can't wait to see you guys. If you're coming in for fights, whatever you're coming to California for, man, let's hang.

Matt Dolman:

Let's do it.

Bob Simon:

Yeah, bro.

Matt Dolman:

I'm game. All right, now I'll be on the next Bourbon of Proof tour.

Bob Simon:

Yeah, bro.

Stan Gipe:

Take care, guy. See you, have a good one.

Bob Simon:

Bye now.

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