How Lawyers Combat Human Trafficking

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Matt Dolman:

Welcome to another episode the Sibley Dolman Gipe Podcast. I'm Matt Dolman, here of my partner, Stan Gipe.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah, welcome. And today I think we're going to talk a little bit about some human trafficking and some of the stuff that goes on. It's kind of a timely issue now because we got the Superbowl here in Tampa, and I think it's pretty well known that wherever the Superbowl goes and guys with money go, you tend to have a spike in guys who are involved in sex trafficking, and sex trafficking itself.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. I mean, this is an issue that always goes on. The Superbowl brings a little bit more scrutiny to the Tampa area. And the last Superbowl in Miami there was over 40 individuals are arrested and they recovered four women or girls who were under the age of 18.

Matt Dolman:

And it comes to light just because it's like the traveling road show of the Superbowl. And it brings a lot of individuals who have money. And after hours, men will be men. And what you have to worry about is these ... It's the old adage. When you see it, when you see something, say something. What do you need to look for? What are the signs of sexual trafficking that your average common person might not be aware of?

Stan Gipe:

Well, okay, and you got to separate different things. There is a sex industry in Tampa that's legal.

Matt Dolman:

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Stan Gipe:

Not selling sex, but adult establishments, things like this. Look, there's nothing wrong with that. You may have your own moral or ethical opinion about it, but from a legal and actionable standpoint, that's fair game.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

That's business.

Matt Dolman:

That's consenting adults.

Stan Gipe:

Exactly. What we're talking about is something completely different. And a lot of people think that sex trafficking is limited to minors and it's not.

Matt Dolman:

No, not at all.

Stan Gipe:

You get adults, you get adult women, and even some men that get caught up in scenes where they can't get out of. Either threats of physical violence, drug addiction, or physically constraining people in the worst circumstances. Some of these people get marked with tattoos, they get branded and essentially become property of a pimp. And you got to watch for these things.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. You see them get groomed and recruited into the industry, or the solicit industry if you will, by promises that you're going to have a better life and financial opportunities.

Matt Dolman:

And what you find is individuals who wound up getting addicted to drugs, get cut off from the outside world. They restrict the ability to communicate with their friends and loved ones. And then next thing you know, they're just, they're wrapped up into it and they don't know how to leave and escape. There's intimidation, threats of violence against family members and it just, they're stuck. They don't have another option.

Stan Gipe:

Well, exactly. They get stuck. And then what happens is you've got people that operate on the fringes of these legal industries. Hey, you've got that guy who's going to sit in the legal club, watch for someone they think is getting a little too inebriated, a little too drunk, and then walk over and try to make the deal or talk to that person and take advantage of them. What you got to look at is this is a huge, huge money-making industry.

Matt Dolman:

Sure. And in many of these motels that we're currently targeting, they're complicit. I'm not saying they necessarily endorse it, but they know what's going on. It's almost a course of doing business to them, it's a cost rather. And they ignore it.

Matt Dolman:

And we'll go over several criteria, but one of the things we often look for is reservations that are made in cash without an ID. Individuals coming and going from a room at weird hours, and constant foot traffic going in and out of the room. Up to 15, 20 women staying in maybe two or three rooms in a block. And no room checks are occurring at that motel for weeks upon a time.

Matt Dolman:

And even worse is, what we see is oftentimes the motels will be located adjacent to or if in close proximity of an adult entertainment establishment, a strip club, if you will. And this is where the girls go after hours and often will turn tricks.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely. And there's a difference between privacy, which we all expect at a hotel.

Matt Dolman:

Correct.

Stan Gipe:

You expect when you check in you're minding your own business and turning a blind eye. There are certain motel and hotel chains, which have almost had policies on a nationwide basis that would promote these kind of activities. And in specific, there was one motel chain, I don't want to mention their name, but several years ago got in trouble for bonusing their managers if they could get over 100% occupancy. Well, the only way you're getting over 100% occupancy is turning a room more than one time in a day.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

Why would you do that? How many people go to the hotel and say, "You know what? I just want to hang out for a few hours in the room here. I don't need it for the night."

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. And you're doing that for one of several reasons, but usually to engage in a sexual activity.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah, I mean-

Matt Dolman:

Whether it's illicit or you're cheating on your spouse and you're trying to find a motel to go hang out in the middle of the day, there's a reason why you're using a room for a very short period of time. And again, you got to observe the totality of circumstances. And if you're not careful as a hotel worker and part management, you need to not turn a blind eye to these activities. You need to be very alert and astute as to what might be going on behind the scenes.

Stan Gipe:

It's the same sort of thing that ... I don't know about you, but I lived in some apartment complexes when I was in college. And you didn't have to know everyone in the complex to know what went on in certain apartments in the complex.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

You had the knowledge of, "I think that guy's the one that's slinging drugs."

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, of course.

Stan Gipe:

You know that, you know which apartment it is.

Matt Dolman:

You do.

Stan Gipe:

And it's not because you dug into their stuff. It's because you just didn't turn a blonde eye, you used your common sense.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, the constant foot traffic going up and the aroma.

Stan Gipe:

Exactly, it's the same thing.

Matt Dolman:

The smell. Yeah.

Stan Gipe:

With hotels and motels, you don't have to investigate. But when it becomes obvious, when it becomes the kind of stuff you can pick up just by being there, you can't ignore it. You can't ignore it because someone's just paying that daily rate in the room.

Stan Gipe:

If you've got underage girls, if you've got young girls in a room, if you got a room with a lot of foot traffic and housekeeping goes in and removes a large number of condoms in the morning, used condoms, you can't pretend like you don't know what's going on. You are facilitating this. You are giving the human trafficker a place to conduct his business. And without that place, he's got no business.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. More often than not they're not going to actually clean the rooms. There's no room check for long periods of time. They know that. Why are they not checking on the rooms? It has to tell you something, something's wrong up there.

Stan Gipe:

That's it, 100%. And when you think this is an absolute necessary part of the progress. There is no way you can go and traffic a human without a place to do it. This involves some sort of sexual contact. You need a location. If you hit the hotels, if we sue the motels, if we make them pay, make it cost more to do this than they make off of it, suddenly you eliminate the location. You eliminate the financial incentive for the hotel and motel. And you sort of turn the tides on this stuff.

Matt Dolman:

And I'd say that they're held to a higher standard now. I don't know if under the law, but I would assume juries will hold them to a higher standard based on the proliferation of these amount of cases that are being prosecuted and the number of civil lawsuits out there. And the hotel staff members are being trained in, obviously if you see something, say something and what they should look out for.

Matt Dolman:

And basically, the amount of cases that are out there and the education's being received and the training being received and the safety protocols in place at these motel, hotel chains, you would assume that they have knowledge of this. And even worse is that they're complicit in this.

Stan Gipe:

Right. And you I'm going to tell you what, you want to talk about a jury dynamic. Because a lot of stuff with what we do, if you don't settle the claim you end up in front of a jury. And you've got six people that tell you what a claim is worth.

Stan Gipe:

It's a completely different dynamic when you've got a little old lady who accidentally rear-ended someone and is very sorry, but just wants to pay for what they owe. Versus a rich motel owner, who's been profiting off of exploiting sex trafficking. The dynamics, the feeling of the jury, the numbers they throw out at you are completely different. And that's what we do.

Matt Dolman:

When you're dealing with a normal back and neck injury case that's very homogenous and you can't ... The person walks and talks and acts normal. You can't tell if they have a minor traumatic brain injury or they have a slipped disc that was caused by the accident. Maybe that slipped disc was there beforehand. Maybe it's part of their age. Maybe it's a normal degeneration process in their spine. Everyone in that jury's had back or neck issues.

Matt Dolman:

Those are more difficult in front of a jury than your sex traffic case where you have individuals, often minors, that were sexually exploited, as you just said.

Stan Gipe:

Right. Because initially the jury is mad. When they start hearing about it they get pissed. They don't like that this goes on. I don't like that it goes on. And that sort of emotion in the jury is what drives verdicts. They like to do what's right, and these cases are fantastic.

Stan Gipe:

And as you know, Matt, we've been starting to target these cases a little bit more in the recent years because it started to happen more. And if anybody, if anybody that's listening to this knows of someone who's being exploited, give them our name, give them our number.

Matt Dolman:

Sure.

Stan Gipe:

Call us, because this is the stuff we would love to-

Matt Dolman:

And I don't want individuals who are listening to us to be confused about the fact that it's not just limited to your typical motels that are located, again, adjacent or within close proximity to a strip club.

Matt Dolman:

This happens at high-end hotels as well, just a little bit less common. But you'll see high-end escorts with their pimp or their John, the individual bringing them in, that is paying by cash, with lack of ID. And they just want to book the room. Especially right now with COVID and amount of vacancies they have, they're just looking to turn over a room.

Stan Gipe:

That's true. And then the other thing we want to mention about this is a ton of this business occurs on the internet.

Matt Dolman:

There's where they groom these individuals.

Stan Gipe:

Well, and that's where they're putting ads out there. This ad for an escort, this ad for a date. I will tell you this, there's one thing. And as a guy, you've been out, you've done things, you've gone from 18, 19, 20, 21. At any point in time, if you've dated a younger girl. Hey, when you were 17, your girlfriend was 16. At some point you turned 18 and you were dating a 17-year-old.

Stan Gipe:

And there's a little window where this stuff is somewhat okay. But you as an adult, if you're sitting here as a 32, a 35-year-old man, and you see some little girl who appears to be 18-years-old, you better be sure. Because I'm going to tell you, there is no excuse for getting involved with a minor.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah.

Stan Gipe:

You cannot say, "She showed me a false ID." You cannot say she-

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, the law considers that strict scrutiny. They're not-

Stan Gipe:

Strict liability.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah.

Stan Gipe:

You absolutely ... There is no excuse. So anyone, as a guy that looks at this, if anyone sees any of this you go to jail for a long, long time if you get involved with an underaged girl.

Matt Dolman:

No two ways about it.

Stan Gipe:

And that's what a lot of this sex trafficking is, involves underage girls. You go to jail for a long time. Just look, I mean, here in town in the last month, Chad Chronister put up a board with, what was it? 40, 45 Johns.

Matt Dolman:

I saw that, I forgot what it was called. It's operations or some ... Yeah, it's the latest taskforce they had to tackle sexual trafficking in the area.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah.

Matt Dolman:

Sexual exploitation.

Stan Gipe:

Exactly. And that was at least 45 guys in the area just now. So this is a rampant business. It's something that's going on on a lot-

Matt Dolman:

And this isn't legal analysis. But that's shocking being that there's plenty of women out there that are older than 25 you can go do the same thing with.

Stan Gipe:

Well you're right. But there's something about a certain element of guy that will pursue that. And let me tell you what? We'll go after that. We can make claims against anybody who has sexually exploited a minor, who has participated in human trafficking. If they've got money and they've profited from it, we can make a claim against them and go get the money back and try to help some of these victims.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, no two ways about ... I mean, it's going to be easier against the hotel conglomerates that own these motel chains than going after the individuals themselves. But yeah, no one's immune to these lawsuits.

Stan Gipe:

Well, understand that when you go after individuals, if they own a house, their homeowners insurance most of the time covers up for negligence outside of the house. A lot of times these people are walking around with coverage, and a lot of times they just, they don't think about it that, yeah, this is an actionable claim with insurance coverage to pursue.

Matt Dolman:

I mean, yeah. And always think about the fact that this is someone's daughter.

Stan Gipe:

Yeah. Everyone, it's some-

Matt Dolman:

It's not just limited to women, I mean, it's men too, but it's someone child.

Stan Gipe:

It's true. And as we approach Superbowl, Superbowl attracts money. And money attracts-

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, actually the game. People are just in town to be seen and part of the scene and part of the parties. And even with COVID going on, it's still going to happen.

Stan Gipe:

What you find is because the people who work in the industry, the people who are exploiting women, they know this is the area to come to because people with money will be here. I imagine with COVID we're going to see a little less foot traffic in town with the Superbowl than we would otherwise, but it's still going to be ripe for this type of activity.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah, there will still be a lot of individuals coming to town this weekend, next week.

Stan Gipe:

So Matt, I know everyone who's listening to us probably knows where to find us, but what's the best phone number if anyone wants to give us a call to either ask questions about this, let us know that any of this stuff is going on. Or really talk to us about a claim they've got concerns on.

Matt Dolman:

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Matt Dolman:

But before we wrap this up, I also want to mention that this is not just limited to sexual trafficking. I mean, we often see labor trafficking occurring at these very same and ... Because we're talking about motels and hotels. And oftentimes the housekeeping staff are brought in, their undocumented workers and they're brought in through agencies. And the motel or hotel staff, or the hotel company rather, thinks that they're immune from prosecution. They know that they're cutting corners. They know the agency's cutting corners to bring these undocumented individuals in, and they're getting paid less than minimum wage. And it's almost like almost forced slavery.

Stan Gipe:

Well, it is forced slavery. And you got into this, and I've heard some anecdotal situations where what will happen is, let's say guys who are human traffickers will sit there and they'll find people, let's say, in Mexico. And, "Hey, who wants to come to America? I can get you there."

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. "I promise you a better life."

Stan Gipe:

You promise you a better life, promise you all this. And then when they come, they literally on the front end have these people sorted out. "Oh, this is a pretty girl. She's going to go into this trade. This person doesn't have any traction in the sex trade."

Matt Dolman:

And they have to work off their debt they owe to what's called a mule, the person who brought them over. Now they're in debt and they have to pay off that debt when they're making less ... Sometimes, especially forced labor, take away the sexual trafficking element, these individuals are often being paid less than a minimum wage. Which means they are never able to actually pay off the debt and live on their money they're making.

Stan Gipe:

hey are absolutely [inaudible: 00:16:10

Matt Dolman:

So it creates a system where they're forever indebted. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Stan Gipe:

No worries. But that's exactly it. They put these people in two buckets, either going to work the sex trade or going to work the labor trade. And what you'll find is certain, and a lot of it is predominantly service industry like cleaning, sometimes it's the restaurant industry, they'll attempt to circumvent the wage and hour laws by providing free room and board along with the job.

Stan Gipe:

And what you'll find is you've got 20 people who are illegal in the country, all holed up in one house and then they're being paid $20 a day to work somewhere. It's human trafficking in a different form.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. I mean, they could ever afford to escape that home because they cannot pay for a place to live, let alone three ... You can't afford three hots and a cot on the $20 a day, and also pay back the debt that you owe to the mule.

Stan Gipe:

Exactly.

Matt Dolman:

It's imposs-

Stan Gipe:

It's like, what was it? Indentured servant?

Matt Dolman:

You are an indentured servant.

Stan Gipe:

That's essentially what it is. And that's actionable as well, you've got claims against-

Matt Dolman:

You're undocumented, so these individuals will feel like they're off the grid and they can't afford to even make a claim against them.

Stan Gipe:

Undocumented. And let me tell you what, Matt. Not that you bring that up, does it matter if you're not a documented immigrant if you need to make a claim? Because we, in this area, have had several claims have handled for people who, when they came to the office were worried, because they didn't have a social security number.

Matt Dolman:

No. And you know the ... It does not affect the claim at all.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely. So even if you're someone who's here illegally, and even if you're someone who doesn't have a social security number, don't think that you need to be hesitant to make this claim just because you've done a little something wrong or you've got-

Matt Dolman:

If you're in that situation right now and you feel scared, you're nervous, you do not know how to escape the situation, just give us a call and we'll put you in touch with the right people so that you are able to ... We can help you with this situation, alleviate your concerns, get law enforcement involved, and get you out of what is really going to be a terrible situation long-term.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely.

Matt Dolman:

You're not stuck.

Stan Gipe:

No. And even if you're not legal in the country, you're absolutely not stuck. That should have no bearing on your decision on what to do with this because we can handle that.

Matt Dolman:

Yeah. I mean, you still have specific inalienable rights that you are guaranteed.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely.

Matt Dolman:

And just due process. And it's just, it's awful.

Stan Gipe:

It is. All right.

Matt Dolman:

And that wraps up another episode of the Sibley Dolman Gipe Podcast. Thanks, Stan, I appreciate you coming out today.

Stan Gipe:

Absolutely, anytime.

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